If infinitesimal transformations commute why don't the generators of the Lorentz group commute?Why do we use the complexification of the Lorentz group?Difference Between Algebra of Infinitesimal Conformal Transformations & Conformal AlgebraSubgroup of Lorentz Group Generated by BoostsLorentz Group Generators: Two MethodsMeaning of Lorentz GeneratorsFinite lorentz transform for 4-vectors in terms of the generatorsOn the generators of the Lorentz groupLie group compactness from generatorsRelation between the Dirac Algebra and the Lorentz groupCommutation relations of the generators of the Lorentz group
How to safely discharge oneself
Presenting 2 results for one variable using a left brace
What does it mean to "take the Cross"
Good examples of "two is easy, three is hard" in computational sciences
How could Dwarves prevent sand from filling up their settlements
Is presenting a play showing Military characters in a bad light a crime in the US?
Bash - Execute two commands and get exit status 1 if first fails
How to tease a romance without a cat and mouse chase?
Keeping the dodos out of the field
Expand a hexagon
How do you cope with rejection?
On a piano, are the effects of holding notes and the sustain pedal the same for a single chord?
Can 2 light bulbs of 120V in series be used on 230V AC?
Connecting circles clockwise in TikZ
How to use Screen Sharing if I don't know the remote Mac's IP address
400–430 degrees Celsius heated bath
Was Tyrion always a poor strategist?
Separate the element after every 2nd ',' and push into next row in bash
Managing heat dissipation in a magic wand
How do we explain the use of a software on a math paper?
If the Charles SSL Proxy shows me sensitive data, is that data insecure/exposed?
Is being an extrovert a necessary condition to be a manager?
If you attack a Tarrasque while swallowed, what AC do you need to beat to hit it?
How did Arya and the Hound get into King's Landing so easily?
If infinitesimal transformations commute why don't the generators of the Lorentz group commute?
Why do we use the complexification of the Lorentz group?Difference Between Algebra of Infinitesimal Conformal Transformations & Conformal AlgebraSubgroup of Lorentz Group Generated by BoostsLorentz Group Generators: Two MethodsMeaning of Lorentz GeneratorsFinite lorentz transform for 4-vectors in terms of the generatorsOn the generators of the Lorentz groupLie group compactness from generatorsRelation between the Dirac Algebra and the Lorentz groupCommutation relations of the generators of the Lorentz group
$begingroup$
If infinitesimal transformations commute as proved e.g. on this mathworld.wolfram page, why are the commutators for the generators of the Lorentz group nonzero?
special-relativity group-theory lorentz-symmetry commutator lie-algebra
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If infinitesimal transformations commute as proved e.g. on this mathworld.wolfram page, why are the commutators for the generators of the Lorentz group nonzero?
special-relativity group-theory lorentz-symmetry commutator lie-algebra
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If infinitesimal transformations commute as proved e.g. on this mathworld.wolfram page, why are the commutators for the generators of the Lorentz group nonzero?
special-relativity group-theory lorentz-symmetry commutator lie-algebra
$endgroup$
If infinitesimal transformations commute as proved e.g. on this mathworld.wolfram page, why are the commutators for the generators of the Lorentz group nonzero?
special-relativity group-theory lorentz-symmetry commutator lie-algebra
special-relativity group-theory lorentz-symmetry commutator lie-algebra
edited Mar 24 at 17:44
Qmechanic♦
109k122051273
109k122051273
asked Mar 23 at 15:23
KALLE THE BAWSMANKALLE THE BAWSMAN
1207
1207
add a comment |
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
I'll use ordinary rotations as an example. The same reasoning applies for other Lorentz transformations, too.
Suppose that $G_x$ and $G_y$ generate rotations about the $x$- and $y$-axes, respectively. This means that $exp(theta G_x)$ is a rotation through angle $theta$ about the $x$-axis, and $exp(phi G_y)$ is a rotation through angle $phi$ about the $y$-axis. Those rotations don't commute with each other, so $G_x$ and $G_y$ must not commute with each other, either.
When the linked website (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/InfinitesimalRotation.html) talks about the "commutativity of infinitesimal transformations," it means that if the angles $theta$ and $phi$ both have infinitesimal magnitude $epsilonll 1$, then the rotations $exp(theta G_x)$ and $exp(phi G_y)$ commute with each other to first order in $epsilon$. This is true even though the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ don't commute with each other, because the terms in the composite rotation $exp(theta G_x)exp(phi G_y)$ that involve products of $G_x$ and $G_y$ are of order $epsilon^2llepsilon$, so the non-commutativity of the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ doesn't affect things at first order in $epsilon$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Illustrative example: It is straightforward to prove that the Lie group
$$ SO(3)~:=~ Min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid M^tM=mathbb1_3times 3, ~det(M)=1 $$
of 3D rotations is generated by the corresponding Lie algebra
$$ so(3)~:=~ min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid m^t=-m $$
of real $3times 3$ antisymmetric matrices, which clearly do not all commute.Concretely notice how the mathworld.wolfram page in eqs. (2)-(5) omits the second-order terms, whose difference reveals the commutator!
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While
beginalign
e^epsilon A e^epsilon B&=(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots)(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)tag1, ,\
&= 1+ epsilon (A+B)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+AB +B^2)+ldots
endalign
we have
beginalign
e^epsilon B e^epsilon A&=(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots), ,tag2\
&= 1+ epsilon (B+A)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+BA +B^2)+ldots
endalign
so:
- To order $epsilon$, the transformations are the same,
- To order $epsilon^2$ they are different.
Since the commutator $[A,B]$ involves products like $AB$ and $BA$, one must compare terms in $epsilon^2$ in (1) and (2) to see that they differ by a commutator.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "151"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f468216%2fif-infinitesimal-transformations-commute-why-dont-the-generators-of-the-lorentz%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
I'll use ordinary rotations as an example. The same reasoning applies for other Lorentz transformations, too.
Suppose that $G_x$ and $G_y$ generate rotations about the $x$- and $y$-axes, respectively. This means that $exp(theta G_x)$ is a rotation through angle $theta$ about the $x$-axis, and $exp(phi G_y)$ is a rotation through angle $phi$ about the $y$-axis. Those rotations don't commute with each other, so $G_x$ and $G_y$ must not commute with each other, either.
When the linked website (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/InfinitesimalRotation.html) talks about the "commutativity of infinitesimal transformations," it means that if the angles $theta$ and $phi$ both have infinitesimal magnitude $epsilonll 1$, then the rotations $exp(theta G_x)$ and $exp(phi G_y)$ commute with each other to first order in $epsilon$. This is true even though the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ don't commute with each other, because the terms in the composite rotation $exp(theta G_x)exp(phi G_y)$ that involve products of $G_x$ and $G_y$ are of order $epsilon^2llepsilon$, so the non-commutativity of the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ doesn't affect things at first order in $epsilon$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I'll use ordinary rotations as an example. The same reasoning applies for other Lorentz transformations, too.
Suppose that $G_x$ and $G_y$ generate rotations about the $x$- and $y$-axes, respectively. This means that $exp(theta G_x)$ is a rotation through angle $theta$ about the $x$-axis, and $exp(phi G_y)$ is a rotation through angle $phi$ about the $y$-axis. Those rotations don't commute with each other, so $G_x$ and $G_y$ must not commute with each other, either.
When the linked website (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/InfinitesimalRotation.html) talks about the "commutativity of infinitesimal transformations," it means that if the angles $theta$ and $phi$ both have infinitesimal magnitude $epsilonll 1$, then the rotations $exp(theta G_x)$ and $exp(phi G_y)$ commute with each other to first order in $epsilon$. This is true even though the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ don't commute with each other, because the terms in the composite rotation $exp(theta G_x)exp(phi G_y)$ that involve products of $G_x$ and $G_y$ are of order $epsilon^2llepsilon$, so the non-commutativity of the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ doesn't affect things at first order in $epsilon$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I'll use ordinary rotations as an example. The same reasoning applies for other Lorentz transformations, too.
Suppose that $G_x$ and $G_y$ generate rotations about the $x$- and $y$-axes, respectively. This means that $exp(theta G_x)$ is a rotation through angle $theta$ about the $x$-axis, and $exp(phi G_y)$ is a rotation through angle $phi$ about the $y$-axis. Those rotations don't commute with each other, so $G_x$ and $G_y$ must not commute with each other, either.
When the linked website (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/InfinitesimalRotation.html) talks about the "commutativity of infinitesimal transformations," it means that if the angles $theta$ and $phi$ both have infinitesimal magnitude $epsilonll 1$, then the rotations $exp(theta G_x)$ and $exp(phi G_y)$ commute with each other to first order in $epsilon$. This is true even though the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ don't commute with each other, because the terms in the composite rotation $exp(theta G_x)exp(phi G_y)$ that involve products of $G_x$ and $G_y$ are of order $epsilon^2llepsilon$, so the non-commutativity of the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ doesn't affect things at first order in $epsilon$.
$endgroup$
I'll use ordinary rotations as an example. The same reasoning applies for other Lorentz transformations, too.
Suppose that $G_x$ and $G_y$ generate rotations about the $x$- and $y$-axes, respectively. This means that $exp(theta G_x)$ is a rotation through angle $theta$ about the $x$-axis, and $exp(phi G_y)$ is a rotation through angle $phi$ about the $y$-axis. Those rotations don't commute with each other, so $G_x$ and $G_y$ must not commute with each other, either.
When the linked website (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/InfinitesimalRotation.html) talks about the "commutativity of infinitesimal transformations," it means that if the angles $theta$ and $phi$ both have infinitesimal magnitude $epsilonll 1$, then the rotations $exp(theta G_x)$ and $exp(phi G_y)$ commute with each other to first order in $epsilon$. This is true even though the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ don't commute with each other, because the terms in the composite rotation $exp(theta G_x)exp(phi G_y)$ that involve products of $G_x$ and $G_y$ are of order $epsilon^2llepsilon$, so the non-commutativity of the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ doesn't affect things at first order in $epsilon$.
answered Mar 23 at 15:57
Chiral AnomalyChiral Anomaly
15.2k22151
15.2k22151
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Illustrative example: It is straightforward to prove that the Lie group
$$ SO(3)~:=~ Min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid M^tM=mathbb1_3times 3, ~det(M)=1 $$
of 3D rotations is generated by the corresponding Lie algebra
$$ so(3)~:=~ min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid m^t=-m $$
of real $3times 3$ antisymmetric matrices, which clearly do not all commute.Concretely notice how the mathworld.wolfram page in eqs. (2)-(5) omits the second-order terms, whose difference reveals the commutator!
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Illustrative example: It is straightforward to prove that the Lie group
$$ SO(3)~:=~ Min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid M^tM=mathbb1_3times 3, ~det(M)=1 $$
of 3D rotations is generated by the corresponding Lie algebra
$$ so(3)~:=~ min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid m^t=-m $$
of real $3times 3$ antisymmetric matrices, which clearly do not all commute.Concretely notice how the mathworld.wolfram page in eqs. (2)-(5) omits the second-order terms, whose difference reveals the commutator!
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Illustrative example: It is straightforward to prove that the Lie group
$$ SO(3)~:=~ Min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid M^tM=mathbb1_3times 3, ~det(M)=1 $$
of 3D rotations is generated by the corresponding Lie algebra
$$ so(3)~:=~ min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid m^t=-m $$
of real $3times 3$ antisymmetric matrices, which clearly do not all commute.Concretely notice how the mathworld.wolfram page in eqs. (2)-(5) omits the second-order terms, whose difference reveals the commutator!
$endgroup$
Illustrative example: It is straightforward to prove that the Lie group
$$ SO(3)~:=~ Min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid M^tM=mathbb1_3times 3, ~det(M)=1 $$
of 3D rotations is generated by the corresponding Lie algebra
$$ so(3)~:=~ min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid m^t=-m $$
of real $3times 3$ antisymmetric matrices, which clearly do not all commute.Concretely notice how the mathworld.wolfram page in eqs. (2)-(5) omits the second-order terms, whose difference reveals the commutator!
answered Mar 24 at 17:44
Qmechanic♦Qmechanic
109k122051273
109k122051273
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While
beginalign
e^epsilon A e^epsilon B&=(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots)(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)tag1, ,\
&= 1+ epsilon (A+B)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+AB +B^2)+ldots
endalign
we have
beginalign
e^epsilon B e^epsilon A&=(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots), ,tag2\
&= 1+ epsilon (B+A)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+BA +B^2)+ldots
endalign
so:
- To order $epsilon$, the transformations are the same,
- To order $epsilon^2$ they are different.
Since the commutator $[A,B]$ involves products like $AB$ and $BA$, one must compare terms in $epsilon^2$ in (1) and (2) to see that they differ by a commutator.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While
beginalign
e^epsilon A e^epsilon B&=(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots)(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)tag1, ,\
&= 1+ epsilon (A+B)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+AB +B^2)+ldots
endalign
we have
beginalign
e^epsilon B e^epsilon A&=(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots), ,tag2\
&= 1+ epsilon (B+A)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+BA +B^2)+ldots
endalign
so:
- To order $epsilon$, the transformations are the same,
- To order $epsilon^2$ they are different.
Since the commutator $[A,B]$ involves products like $AB$ and $BA$, one must compare terms in $epsilon^2$ in (1) and (2) to see that they differ by a commutator.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While
beginalign
e^epsilon A e^epsilon B&=(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots)(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)tag1, ,\
&= 1+ epsilon (A+B)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+AB +B^2)+ldots
endalign
we have
beginalign
e^epsilon B e^epsilon A&=(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots), ,tag2\
&= 1+ epsilon (B+A)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+BA +B^2)+ldots
endalign
so:
- To order $epsilon$, the transformations are the same,
- To order $epsilon^2$ they are different.
Since the commutator $[A,B]$ involves products like $AB$ and $BA$, one must compare terms in $epsilon^2$ in (1) and (2) to see that they differ by a commutator.
$endgroup$
While
beginalign
e^epsilon A e^epsilon B&=(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots)(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)tag1, ,\
&= 1+ epsilon (A+B)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+AB +B^2)+ldots
endalign
we have
beginalign
e^epsilon B e^epsilon A&=(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots), ,tag2\
&= 1+ epsilon (B+A)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+BA +B^2)+ldots
endalign
so:
- To order $epsilon$, the transformations are the same,
- To order $epsilon^2$ they are different.
Since the commutator $[A,B]$ involves products like $AB$ and $BA$, one must compare terms in $epsilon^2$ in (1) and (2) to see that they differ by a commutator.
answered Mar 24 at 18:02
ZeroTheHeroZeroTheHero
21.7k53465
21.7k53465
add a comment |
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Physics Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f468216%2fif-infinitesimal-transformations-commute-why-dont-the-generators-of-the-lorentz%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown