Why can't the Brexit deadlock in the UK parliament be solved with a plurality vote?What happens if Parliament rejects the Brexit deal?Is there a date (before 29 Mar 2019) when a hard Brexit is inevitable?What would be the subject of a second Brexit Referendum?Why is there such a long delay before putting the “Meaningful Vote” to the British ParliamentCould the UK Parliament defy the delay on the meaningful vote and simply vote on it?Can the UK deal selectively with Ireland post-Brexit without falling afoul of WTO rules?What will happen if Parliament votes “no” on each of the Brexit-related votes to be held on the 12th, 13th and 14th of March?What options are left, if Britain cannot decide?Can an Article 50 extension take effect pending approval from national states?Why is participating in the European Parliamentary elections used as a threat?
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Why can't the Brexit deadlock in the UK parliament be solved with a plurality vote?
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Why can't the Brexit deadlock in the UK parliament be solved with a plurality vote?
What happens if Parliament rejects the Brexit deal?Is there a date (before 29 Mar 2019) when a hard Brexit is inevitable?What would be the subject of a second Brexit Referendum?Why is there such a long delay before putting the “Meaningful Vote” to the British ParliamentCould the UK Parliament defy the delay on the meaningful vote and simply vote on it?Can the UK deal selectively with Ireland post-Brexit without falling afoul of WTO rules?What will happen if Parliament votes “no” on each of the Brexit-related votes to be held on the 12th, 13th and 14th of March?What options are left, if Britain cannot decide?Can an Article 50 extension take effect pending approval from national states?Why is participating in the European Parliamentary elections used as a threat?
I doubt I am the only person that is frustrated and a bit perplexed by the current deadlock we are seeing in the UK parliament regarding Brexit. My question is: there appears to be a fairly well-defined list of possible options that are available:
- Accept the current deal being offered by the EU
- Continue to push and negotiate for a better deal (implying an extension to Article 50)
- Leave with no deal ("hard Brexit")
- Hold a second referendum and put the question back to the people
- Unilateral withdrawal of article 50
So, why can't parliament simply hold a vote on these options and go with whichever one gains the most votes (even if it is a plurality, rather than a majority)?
The deadlock seems to stem (at least in part) from the fact that each individual option requires the agreement of the majority to be put into effect, yet there is no majority agreement on any of the available options. So, why not break the deadlock by plurality?
Edit: Is there any procedural reason why such a plurality vote could not be held in the House of Commons?
united-kingdom brexit plurality-voting-system
New contributor
|
show 11 more comments
I doubt I am the only person that is frustrated and a bit perplexed by the current deadlock we are seeing in the UK parliament regarding Brexit. My question is: there appears to be a fairly well-defined list of possible options that are available:
- Accept the current deal being offered by the EU
- Continue to push and negotiate for a better deal (implying an extension to Article 50)
- Leave with no deal ("hard Brexit")
- Hold a second referendum and put the question back to the people
- Unilateral withdrawal of article 50
So, why can't parliament simply hold a vote on these options and go with whichever one gains the most votes (even if it is a plurality, rather than a majority)?
The deadlock seems to stem (at least in part) from the fact that each individual option requires the agreement of the majority to be put into effect, yet there is no majority agreement on any of the available options. So, why not break the deadlock by plurality?
Edit: Is there any procedural reason why such a plurality vote could not be held in the House of Commons?
united-kingdom brexit plurality-voting-system
New contributor
8
There is no deal offered by the EU. Instead it was a deal agreed between the EU and the UK (that agree fully with all the details). Option 2 makes no sense, precisely because of this.
– John B
yesterday
2
@JohnB A slightly subtle point, but the negotiations were between the EU council and the UK government, rather than with the UK parliament, hence option 2 might have made some sense if Mrs May's administration (or another one) shifted its "red lines".
– origimbo
yesterday
3
Remembering that there is no guarantee that option 4 results in a clear way out of the deadlock either.
– DJClayworth
yesterday
5
@origimbo With all due respect, it is irrelevant for the EU how the UK decided to make the negotiations. But it is irresponsible and quite amateurish, that the UK negotiates for 2 years and then it is someone else that decides. For the EU the UK parliament does not enter in the equation, it is something merely internal, again with all due respect. I am certainly well aware of what you say, but because of the above there is no discussion here: "There is no deal offered by the EU. Instead it was a deal agreed between the EU and the UK (that agree[d] fully with all the details)." is still true.
– John B
yesterday
4
@JohnB In fact the situation is entirely symmetric. The EU negotiations were led by Michelle Barnier, but the agreement has to be approved by the EU parliament (and they can in principle reject it). What is different is that the EU parliament gave clear directions to the commission as to what they would find acceptable at the start of the negotiations, so the EU parliament approval is expected to be a formality.
– Martin Bonner
19 hours ago
|
show 11 more comments
I doubt I am the only person that is frustrated and a bit perplexed by the current deadlock we are seeing in the UK parliament regarding Brexit. My question is: there appears to be a fairly well-defined list of possible options that are available:
- Accept the current deal being offered by the EU
- Continue to push and negotiate for a better deal (implying an extension to Article 50)
- Leave with no deal ("hard Brexit")
- Hold a second referendum and put the question back to the people
- Unilateral withdrawal of article 50
So, why can't parliament simply hold a vote on these options and go with whichever one gains the most votes (even if it is a plurality, rather than a majority)?
The deadlock seems to stem (at least in part) from the fact that each individual option requires the agreement of the majority to be put into effect, yet there is no majority agreement on any of the available options. So, why not break the deadlock by plurality?
Edit: Is there any procedural reason why such a plurality vote could not be held in the House of Commons?
united-kingdom brexit plurality-voting-system
New contributor
I doubt I am the only person that is frustrated and a bit perplexed by the current deadlock we are seeing in the UK parliament regarding Brexit. My question is: there appears to be a fairly well-defined list of possible options that are available:
- Accept the current deal being offered by the EU
- Continue to push and negotiate for a better deal (implying an extension to Article 50)
- Leave with no deal ("hard Brexit")
- Hold a second referendum and put the question back to the people
- Unilateral withdrawal of article 50
So, why can't parliament simply hold a vote on these options and go with whichever one gains the most votes (even if it is a plurality, rather than a majority)?
The deadlock seems to stem (at least in part) from the fact that each individual option requires the agreement of the majority to be put into effect, yet there is no majority agreement on any of the available options. So, why not break the deadlock by plurality?
Edit: Is there any procedural reason why such a plurality vote could not be held in the House of Commons?
united-kingdom brexit plurality-voting-system
united-kingdom brexit plurality-voting-system
New contributor
New contributor
edited 15 hours ago
smci
1276
1276
New contributor
asked yesterday
Time4TeaTime4Tea
26029
26029
New contributor
New contributor
8
There is no deal offered by the EU. Instead it was a deal agreed between the EU and the UK (that agree fully with all the details). Option 2 makes no sense, precisely because of this.
– John B
yesterday
2
@JohnB A slightly subtle point, but the negotiations were between the EU council and the UK government, rather than with the UK parliament, hence option 2 might have made some sense if Mrs May's administration (or another one) shifted its "red lines".
– origimbo
yesterday
3
Remembering that there is no guarantee that option 4 results in a clear way out of the deadlock either.
– DJClayworth
yesterday
5
@origimbo With all due respect, it is irrelevant for the EU how the UK decided to make the negotiations. But it is irresponsible and quite amateurish, that the UK negotiates for 2 years and then it is someone else that decides. For the EU the UK parliament does not enter in the equation, it is something merely internal, again with all due respect. I am certainly well aware of what you say, but because of the above there is no discussion here: "There is no deal offered by the EU. Instead it was a deal agreed between the EU and the UK (that agree[d] fully with all the details)." is still true.
– John B
yesterday
4
@JohnB In fact the situation is entirely symmetric. The EU negotiations were led by Michelle Barnier, but the agreement has to be approved by the EU parliament (and they can in principle reject it). What is different is that the EU parliament gave clear directions to the commission as to what they would find acceptable at the start of the negotiations, so the EU parliament approval is expected to be a formality.
– Martin Bonner
19 hours ago
|
show 11 more comments
8
There is no deal offered by the EU. Instead it was a deal agreed between the EU and the UK (that agree fully with all the details). Option 2 makes no sense, precisely because of this.
– John B
yesterday
2
@JohnB A slightly subtle point, but the negotiations were between the EU council and the UK government, rather than with the UK parliament, hence option 2 might have made some sense if Mrs May's administration (or another one) shifted its "red lines".
– origimbo
yesterday
3
Remembering that there is no guarantee that option 4 results in a clear way out of the deadlock either.
– DJClayworth
yesterday
5
@origimbo With all due respect, it is irrelevant for the EU how the UK decided to make the negotiations. But it is irresponsible and quite amateurish, that the UK negotiates for 2 years and then it is someone else that decides. For the EU the UK parliament does not enter in the equation, it is something merely internal, again with all due respect. I am certainly well aware of what you say, but because of the above there is no discussion here: "There is no deal offered by the EU. Instead it was a deal agreed between the EU and the UK (that agree[d] fully with all the details)." is still true.
– John B
yesterday
4
@JohnB In fact the situation is entirely symmetric. The EU negotiations were led by Michelle Barnier, but the agreement has to be approved by the EU parliament (and they can in principle reject it). What is different is that the EU parliament gave clear directions to the commission as to what they would find acceptable at the start of the negotiations, so the EU parliament approval is expected to be a formality.
– Martin Bonner
19 hours ago
8
8
There is no deal offered by the EU. Instead it was a deal agreed between the EU and the UK (that agree fully with all the details). Option 2 makes no sense, precisely because of this.
– John B
yesterday
There is no deal offered by the EU. Instead it was a deal agreed between the EU and the UK (that agree fully with all the details). Option 2 makes no sense, precisely because of this.
– John B
yesterday
2
2
@JohnB A slightly subtle point, but the negotiations were between the EU council and the UK government, rather than with the UK parliament, hence option 2 might have made some sense if Mrs May's administration (or another one) shifted its "red lines".
– origimbo
yesterday
@JohnB A slightly subtle point, but the negotiations were between the EU council and the UK government, rather than with the UK parliament, hence option 2 might have made some sense if Mrs May's administration (or another one) shifted its "red lines".
– origimbo
yesterday
3
3
Remembering that there is no guarantee that option 4 results in a clear way out of the deadlock either.
– DJClayworth
yesterday
Remembering that there is no guarantee that option 4 results in a clear way out of the deadlock either.
– DJClayworth
yesterday
5
5
@origimbo With all due respect, it is irrelevant for the EU how the UK decided to make the negotiations. But it is irresponsible and quite amateurish, that the UK negotiates for 2 years and then it is someone else that decides. For the EU the UK parliament does not enter in the equation, it is something merely internal, again with all due respect. I am certainly well aware of what you say, but because of the above there is no discussion here: "There is no deal offered by the EU. Instead it was a deal agreed between the EU and the UK (that agree[d] fully with all the details)." is still true.
– John B
yesterday
@origimbo With all due respect, it is irrelevant for the EU how the UK decided to make the negotiations. But it is irresponsible and quite amateurish, that the UK negotiates for 2 years and then it is someone else that decides. For the EU the UK parliament does not enter in the equation, it is something merely internal, again with all due respect. I am certainly well aware of what you say, but because of the above there is no discussion here: "There is no deal offered by the EU. Instead it was a deal agreed between the EU and the UK (that agree[d] fully with all the details)." is still true.
– John B
yesterday
4
4
@JohnB In fact the situation is entirely symmetric. The EU negotiations were led by Michelle Barnier, but the agreement has to be approved by the EU parliament (and they can in principle reject it). What is different is that the EU parliament gave clear directions to the commission as to what they would find acceptable at the start of the negotiations, so the EU parliament approval is expected to be a formality.
– Martin Bonner
19 hours ago
@JohnB In fact the situation is entirely symmetric. The EU negotiations were led by Michelle Barnier, but the agreement has to be approved by the EU parliament (and they can in principle reject it). What is different is that the EU parliament gave clear directions to the commission as to what they would find acceptable at the start of the negotiations, so the EU parliament approval is expected to be a formality.
– Martin Bonner
19 hours ago
|
show 11 more comments
7 Answers
7
active
oldest
votes
Unfortunately for your idea, the core voting mechanism in Westminster (and the only one which is viewed as acceptable for legislation) requires a yes/no question and a binary vote. Indeed the voting actually occurs by travelling down corridors on either side of the debate lobby. Your options 1 and 4 require such a vote (for option one, a somewhat specific motion needs to pass to ratify the deal, while for option four several votes on the bill to create a second referendum would need to pass).
In principle options 2 or 3 could proceed through plurality if the House chose, since leaving with no deal is the default position if nothing else happens and since extending the date only requires there not to be a majority against such an action (and it's already known that there is majority in favour of requesting an extension).
In fact there have been several proposals to call a series of "indicative", non-binding votes along the lines of what you propose, which could conceivably form a consensus around the most popular option, but that still doesn't mean that an option the majority would vote down has much chance (excepting option 3 which could essentially happen by accident at this point.)
13
(excepting option 3 which could essentially happen by accident at this point.)
Ironically, that is the only of the four options MPs could agree they don't want.
– JJJ
yesterday
2
@JJJ At one point or other options 1 and option 4 have met that standard. Both rather heavily.
– origimbo
yesterday
1
@JJJ is there a difference between voting that you do not want something and not voting that you do want it?
– Time4Tea
yesterday
4
@Time4Tea In theory parliament can do anything except irrevocably binding the hands of a future parliament. In practice it's very unlikely a parliament would move to allow statute to be created by a minority of its members, due to the unfortunate precedent it would create.
– origimbo
yesterday
3
@Time4Tea Note that matters of procedure are normally dealt with by changes to the Commons standing orders, not by legislation. The house can do this by a simple majority vote, and changes can be permanent or for a defined amount of time. The most common form of this is for specified standing orders to be suspended for a particular motion before the house.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
|
show 6 more comments
Plurality votes are notoriously open to manipulation. Let's say you are proposing something unpopular, such as a 10% tax increase. Only 40% of MPs support it.
In a plurality vote you can get the measure passed by creating two artificial alternatives - one leave taxes the same, and one to cut taxes by 10%. If half of those opposed to the measure vote each way, then the tax increase has the most votes and will pass.
No legislative assembly I am aware of uses plurality votes, at least partly for this reason.
I think this is a good point. I can see that issues around who gets to decide what question is asked and which options are presented could be quite contentious. Although, it seems to me that in the current situation, a decision has to be made one way or another between a certain number of quite well-defined options. It is really a 'fork in the road', where one path has to be chosen over the others. In that way, I think it is dissimilar to your tax increase example.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
8
Also, let's be clear THERE IS NO DEADLOCK. If nothing is passed then there is a very clear and perfectly simple way forward and it's a no-deal Brexit. Maybe not good, but clear and simple.
– DJClayworth
yesterday
3
I'm not sure it's correct to say no-deal would be imposed on MPs against their will. Invoking Article 50 involved accepting that unless a deal was agreed within two years, a no-deal Brexit would occur. This is what they agreed to. The fact that everyone is in denial about it now, and voting pointlessly against no deal instead of coming up with a workable actual plan doesn't change that
– Mohirl
17 hours ago
1
You say that plurality votes can be manipulated by splitting one of the camps but that's just as true of binary votes. For example, the 1999 referendum in Australia asked "Should we become a republic in this specific way, or stay as a constitutional monarchy?" This led to some republicans voting for the status quo because they didn't like the specific kind of republic being offered (the president would have been appointed by parliament, rather than directly elected by the people).
– David Richerby
16 hours ago
1
@Yakk It would have been perfectly possible to have a straight up yes/no vote on becoming a republic, and then a second vote on exactly what kind of republic. Brexit is somewhat different, because the UK can't unilaterally choose how that is implemented.
– David Richerby
14 hours ago
|
show 14 more comments
There is quite simply no mechanism in Parliament for a plurality vote among more than two options to exist. In order to have a plurality vote you would need to first pass a bill change to the Commons standing orders creating that mechanism, and the majority against the best predicted result would most like vote that bill down.
But even that might not work. The very next thing brought to vote might well be a binding vote to specifically cast down the result chosen from the plurality vote, and will have a majority backing that, so down it goes. There may or may not be procedures that would suffice to block this from coming to a vote, but blocking something with a known outcome from reaching the floor doesn't look like a democracy anymore.
7
@Time4Tea: My understanding of Parliamentary sovereignty is that it is utterly impossible for an act of Parliament to bind Parliament such that can't be undone with the very next binding vote.
– Joshua
yesterday
1
@Time4Tea They may have conceded away some powers, but as this whole mess shows, not irrevocably.
– Frank Hopkins
yesterday
2
"There is quite simply no mechanism in Parliament for a plurality vote...In order to have a plurality vote you would need to first pass a bill". That's not true, for two reasons: (1) Matters of procedure are normally dealt with by changes to the Commons standing orders, not by legislation. Any changes can be permanent, for a limited time, or limited to a specific motion. (2) Other forms of voting are not alien to the House of Commons. In particular, the election of Speaker uses a form of exhaustive ballot.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
3
" blocking something with a known outcome from reaching the floor doesn't look like a democracy anymore." Welcome to the US Senate.
– AShelly
yesterday
1
@Time4Tea No, parliament has not voted to give away its own sovereignty. The current deal would make it impossible for the UK to withdraw without breaking an international treaty. Parliament has sovereignty to choose to break treaties (although it very rarely does so).
– Martin Bonner
18 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
There is no reason why these options could not be put to Parliament in series.
The House of Commons works by having the government propose motions that can be passed or rejected. Motions are allocated time to be debated and other MPs can propose amendments. Finally a series of votes on the amendments and finally on the motion (amended or otherwise) are held.
The problem is that on all but one day a year only the government gets to decide which motions are going to be voted on. And the government is mostly controlled by the Prime Minister, and Mrs May only wants one outcome: her deal is accepted.
As such it's extremely difficult to get votes on the other options. The best hope is for amendments to be accepted supporting those options, but even then the Speaker of the House gets to decide which amendments will be put to the vote so it's not always automatically possible to have them attached to a government motion.
So it's entirely possible, just very unlikely due to Theresa May.
6
"on all but one day a year only the government gets to decide which motions are going to be voted on": that's not true; it's 20 days per session.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
3
Putting options in a series is exactly what the government was doing this last couple of weeks.
– DJClayworth
yesterday
1
@DJClayworth there were amendments to block things like a no-deal crash out, and a few in favour of certain things but they failed due to the way they were presented and whipping. What has been suggested is a series of free votes, non-binding but indicative.
– user
21 hours ago
@DJClayworth Is it? As far as I can tell the government have only brought two options to the house: "this deal" (more than once) and "not no deal on March 29th". Backbench amendments have forced votes on some other options, but that's really not the same thing.
– Chris H
18 hours ago
add a comment |
So, why not break the deadlock by plurality?
As of now, the British government is no longer in deadlock. There has already been a vote on all of the listed options except for option #5 and only the second option (asking for an extension) managed to receive more than 50% of the votes. Thus Theresa May asked for a three month delay on March 20th, currently pending approval by the European Council. Holding a plurality vote would be redundant as no other option had more than 50% of the MPs support.
In three months time (presuming the EU will grant the UK an extension), Parliament will again have to choose between the options, but this time asking for an extension would no longer be possible.
2
What you say is true. However, option 2 is only a temporary solution and will run out of steam eventually (a decision will have to be made). At that point, we will be back in this situation, with option 2 no longer on the list.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
2
Isn't the extension just pushing the problem forward? It's not like extending solves the issues at hand, if anything it adds problems when it conflicts with the EU elections. Indeed, the UK will still need to make a plan for what they will do during that extension..
– JJJ
yesterday
@JJJ it is pushing the problem forward, however its technically a way out of the deadlock. In three months time the Parliament will have to choose between the remaining 4 options.
– JonathanReez
yesterday
7
The EU replied that it won't approve an extension without a deal being approved in Westminster: bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47636011 So there won't be any no-deal extensions, in all likelihood.
– Fizz
yesterday
1
The reason that the OP is suggesting a plurality vote (where something can pass without a majority) is because no course of action has support of a majority. However as others have pointed out, plurality vote has its problems too. This is what Ranked Choice (instant runoff) voting was designed for. But that’s unlikely to happen either.
– Alex
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
Let's say the government proposes this and this vote is carried out. Then a majority of MPs are getting something they don't want (otherwise that outcome could be passed as a normal vote by simple majority). In particular, the government may get an outcome it doesn't want, the majority of parliament doesn't want but would have to carry it out (well, that would be part of the earlier proposition of this system, otherwise the vote would be meaningless). This isn't ideal.
Aside from that, those options aren't a one-time thing. These actions have consequences and once you choose an option, you have to follow through:
For example, if you accept the current deal, many laws will have to
be passed (which requires a majority, again).If they decide to keep on negotiating the impasse isn't broken, they
will just have one more option if a new deal is negotiated, but
there may be no majority for that one either.Leaving without a deal is like opening Pandora's box, it's not
something that solves all existing problems, instead many more
choices (e.g. what will be the policy on allowing EU citizens coming
to the UK? How are goods coming in checked?) will have to be made
and that requires a majority in parliament to do so.A second referendum also doesn't help if there is no majority in
favour of it. In the proposed plurality vote, do MPs commit to
respecting the outcome? Even if that means disrespecting the current
referendum outcome? If the outcome is to leave without a deal, what
instructions does that give the parliament / government with regards
to the previous point?
All in all, it's not that easy. And if MPs do decide they want to work together to get a certain outcome, they can just do that. They wouldn't need the plurality vote. For example, the leaders over the parties could meet, decide an outcome, whip their MPs and don't care about a few people not voting with their decision. Obviously, the problem is that the parties aren't willing to compromise in such a controlled setting, they're not going to allow a vote (for which they don't really know the outcome) and then magically decide to respect that.
I see what you are saying; however, the more possible options there are available in a given situation, the smaller the chance will be of finding a majority agreement on any particular one (because the vote is being split more and more). In that case, to me, a system that relies on a majority vote seems a little inappropriate. Is there anything in UK Parliament procedure that would prevent such a plurality vote being held, in principle?
– Time4Tea
yesterday
1
@Time4Tea I am not that familiar with the system, but I think they could agree to hold the vote and agree* to uphold the outcome. The problem is, parliamentarians won't be likely to do that. *I'm not sure to what extent they can agree, I think there's no problem with just agreeing, but it's probably difficult to make that agreement binding by law (though that might be a different question).
– JJJ
yesterday
2
@Time4Tea normally there's no problem with not having a majority to do anything; the status quo prevails and nothing changes. Belgium managed without a government at all for about 500 days a few years ago. However, there was a majority for Article 50 two years ago. That gets us here. Like parking your car on a railway crossing, doing nothing does not mean status quo, it means getting hit by a train.
– pjc50
yesterday
1
@Time4Tea In any system which purports to be a democracy, you can't fix problems by making one-off changes to the rules. If it is clear that elected representatives don't actually "represent" anything beyond whatever they feel like doing on an ad hoc basis, that is a bigger political problem than a disorderly exit from the EU.
– alephzero
yesterday
2
@alephzero why not, if a majority of representatives are willing to support such a one-off, exceptional deviation? That would seem fairly democratic to me.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
|
show 4 more comments
Starting at the position that the UK voted by itself that they wanted to leave the UK.
Looking at this from a continental view:
You want out? So…
You want to discuss terms? Yes... we had an agreement with your representative.
You say no?... now what do you want? In or out? In does not appear to be a situation we want to be in anymore? When next are you going to take us hostage?
The whole point is that if the UK wants out they should be prepared to make a deal and be prepared. That last bit appears to be a bit neglected.
New contributor
3
Sorry, but I don't think this really answers the question of how/whether the political impasse could be resolved by a plurality vote in the UK Parliament.
– Time4Tea
9 hours ago
Agree, but this just shows the impasse. The British people voted to get out of the EU. But to my "continental" view it appears that they have no clue as to the way that they want to leave.
– Paul Palmpje
9 hours ago
1
I think the problem is that there is no majority agreement on the way in which the UK should leave, hence the 'impasse'. Which comes back to my original point/question: if it is not possible to reach a majority decision, then why not go with whichever option has the most support?
– Time4Tea
9 hours ago
It appears that your suggestion has no legal way. So what's next? The Brits want out... but they do not agree themselves on the way out?
– Paul Palmpje
9 hours ago
Some of the other answers have indicated that there is a legal way such a vote could be held in the UK Parliament (if MPs agreed to it), but it isn't likely to happen. From where I'm standing, a no-deal exit seems to be the most likely scenario now, given it is the default outcome.
– Time4Tea
9 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
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votes
Unfortunately for your idea, the core voting mechanism in Westminster (and the only one which is viewed as acceptable for legislation) requires a yes/no question and a binary vote. Indeed the voting actually occurs by travelling down corridors on either side of the debate lobby. Your options 1 and 4 require such a vote (for option one, a somewhat specific motion needs to pass to ratify the deal, while for option four several votes on the bill to create a second referendum would need to pass).
In principle options 2 or 3 could proceed through plurality if the House chose, since leaving with no deal is the default position if nothing else happens and since extending the date only requires there not to be a majority against such an action (and it's already known that there is majority in favour of requesting an extension).
In fact there have been several proposals to call a series of "indicative", non-binding votes along the lines of what you propose, which could conceivably form a consensus around the most popular option, but that still doesn't mean that an option the majority would vote down has much chance (excepting option 3 which could essentially happen by accident at this point.)
13
(excepting option 3 which could essentially happen by accident at this point.)
Ironically, that is the only of the four options MPs could agree they don't want.
– JJJ
yesterday
2
@JJJ At one point or other options 1 and option 4 have met that standard. Both rather heavily.
– origimbo
yesterday
1
@JJJ is there a difference between voting that you do not want something and not voting that you do want it?
– Time4Tea
yesterday
4
@Time4Tea In theory parliament can do anything except irrevocably binding the hands of a future parliament. In practice it's very unlikely a parliament would move to allow statute to be created by a minority of its members, due to the unfortunate precedent it would create.
– origimbo
yesterday
3
@Time4Tea Note that matters of procedure are normally dealt with by changes to the Commons standing orders, not by legislation. The house can do this by a simple majority vote, and changes can be permanent or for a defined amount of time. The most common form of this is for specified standing orders to be suspended for a particular motion before the house.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
|
show 6 more comments
Unfortunately for your idea, the core voting mechanism in Westminster (and the only one which is viewed as acceptable for legislation) requires a yes/no question and a binary vote. Indeed the voting actually occurs by travelling down corridors on either side of the debate lobby. Your options 1 and 4 require such a vote (for option one, a somewhat specific motion needs to pass to ratify the deal, while for option four several votes on the bill to create a second referendum would need to pass).
In principle options 2 or 3 could proceed through plurality if the House chose, since leaving with no deal is the default position if nothing else happens and since extending the date only requires there not to be a majority against such an action (and it's already known that there is majority in favour of requesting an extension).
In fact there have been several proposals to call a series of "indicative", non-binding votes along the lines of what you propose, which could conceivably form a consensus around the most popular option, but that still doesn't mean that an option the majority would vote down has much chance (excepting option 3 which could essentially happen by accident at this point.)
13
(excepting option 3 which could essentially happen by accident at this point.)
Ironically, that is the only of the four options MPs could agree they don't want.
– JJJ
yesterday
2
@JJJ At one point or other options 1 and option 4 have met that standard. Both rather heavily.
– origimbo
yesterday
1
@JJJ is there a difference between voting that you do not want something and not voting that you do want it?
– Time4Tea
yesterday
4
@Time4Tea In theory parliament can do anything except irrevocably binding the hands of a future parliament. In practice it's very unlikely a parliament would move to allow statute to be created by a minority of its members, due to the unfortunate precedent it would create.
– origimbo
yesterday
3
@Time4Tea Note that matters of procedure are normally dealt with by changes to the Commons standing orders, not by legislation. The house can do this by a simple majority vote, and changes can be permanent or for a defined amount of time. The most common form of this is for specified standing orders to be suspended for a particular motion before the house.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
|
show 6 more comments
Unfortunately for your idea, the core voting mechanism in Westminster (and the only one which is viewed as acceptable for legislation) requires a yes/no question and a binary vote. Indeed the voting actually occurs by travelling down corridors on either side of the debate lobby. Your options 1 and 4 require such a vote (for option one, a somewhat specific motion needs to pass to ratify the deal, while for option four several votes on the bill to create a second referendum would need to pass).
In principle options 2 or 3 could proceed through plurality if the House chose, since leaving with no deal is the default position if nothing else happens and since extending the date only requires there not to be a majority against such an action (and it's already known that there is majority in favour of requesting an extension).
In fact there have been several proposals to call a series of "indicative", non-binding votes along the lines of what you propose, which could conceivably form a consensus around the most popular option, but that still doesn't mean that an option the majority would vote down has much chance (excepting option 3 which could essentially happen by accident at this point.)
Unfortunately for your idea, the core voting mechanism in Westminster (and the only one which is viewed as acceptable for legislation) requires a yes/no question and a binary vote. Indeed the voting actually occurs by travelling down corridors on either side of the debate lobby. Your options 1 and 4 require such a vote (for option one, a somewhat specific motion needs to pass to ratify the deal, while for option four several votes on the bill to create a second referendum would need to pass).
In principle options 2 or 3 could proceed through plurality if the House chose, since leaving with no deal is the default position if nothing else happens and since extending the date only requires there not to be a majority against such an action (and it's already known that there is majority in favour of requesting an extension).
In fact there have been several proposals to call a series of "indicative", non-binding votes along the lines of what you propose, which could conceivably form a consensus around the most popular option, but that still doesn't mean that an option the majority would vote down has much chance (excepting option 3 which could essentially happen by accident at this point.)
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
origimboorigimbo
12.3k23149
12.3k23149
13
(excepting option 3 which could essentially happen by accident at this point.)
Ironically, that is the only of the four options MPs could agree they don't want.
– JJJ
yesterday
2
@JJJ At one point or other options 1 and option 4 have met that standard. Both rather heavily.
– origimbo
yesterday
1
@JJJ is there a difference between voting that you do not want something and not voting that you do want it?
– Time4Tea
yesterday
4
@Time4Tea In theory parliament can do anything except irrevocably binding the hands of a future parliament. In practice it's very unlikely a parliament would move to allow statute to be created by a minority of its members, due to the unfortunate precedent it would create.
– origimbo
yesterday
3
@Time4Tea Note that matters of procedure are normally dealt with by changes to the Commons standing orders, not by legislation. The house can do this by a simple majority vote, and changes can be permanent or for a defined amount of time. The most common form of this is for specified standing orders to be suspended for a particular motion before the house.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
|
show 6 more comments
13
(excepting option 3 which could essentially happen by accident at this point.)
Ironically, that is the only of the four options MPs could agree they don't want.
– JJJ
yesterday
2
@JJJ At one point or other options 1 and option 4 have met that standard. Both rather heavily.
– origimbo
yesterday
1
@JJJ is there a difference between voting that you do not want something and not voting that you do want it?
– Time4Tea
yesterday
4
@Time4Tea In theory parliament can do anything except irrevocably binding the hands of a future parliament. In practice it's very unlikely a parliament would move to allow statute to be created by a minority of its members, due to the unfortunate precedent it would create.
– origimbo
yesterday
3
@Time4Tea Note that matters of procedure are normally dealt with by changes to the Commons standing orders, not by legislation. The house can do this by a simple majority vote, and changes can be permanent or for a defined amount of time. The most common form of this is for specified standing orders to be suspended for a particular motion before the house.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
13
13
(excepting option 3 which could essentially happen by accident at this point.)
Ironically, that is the only of the four options MPs could agree they don't want.– JJJ
yesterday
(excepting option 3 which could essentially happen by accident at this point.)
Ironically, that is the only of the four options MPs could agree they don't want.– JJJ
yesterday
2
2
@JJJ At one point or other options 1 and option 4 have met that standard. Both rather heavily.
– origimbo
yesterday
@JJJ At one point or other options 1 and option 4 have met that standard. Both rather heavily.
– origimbo
yesterday
1
1
@JJJ is there a difference between voting that you do not want something and not voting that you do want it?
– Time4Tea
yesterday
@JJJ is there a difference between voting that you do not want something and not voting that you do want it?
– Time4Tea
yesterday
4
4
@Time4Tea In theory parliament can do anything except irrevocably binding the hands of a future parliament. In practice it's very unlikely a parliament would move to allow statute to be created by a minority of its members, due to the unfortunate precedent it would create.
– origimbo
yesterday
@Time4Tea In theory parliament can do anything except irrevocably binding the hands of a future parliament. In practice it's very unlikely a parliament would move to allow statute to be created by a minority of its members, due to the unfortunate precedent it would create.
– origimbo
yesterday
3
3
@Time4Tea Note that matters of procedure are normally dealt with by changes to the Commons standing orders, not by legislation. The house can do this by a simple majority vote, and changes can be permanent or for a defined amount of time. The most common form of this is for specified standing orders to be suspended for a particular motion before the house.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
@Time4Tea Note that matters of procedure are normally dealt with by changes to the Commons standing orders, not by legislation. The house can do this by a simple majority vote, and changes can be permanent or for a defined amount of time. The most common form of this is for specified standing orders to be suspended for a particular motion before the house.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
|
show 6 more comments
Plurality votes are notoriously open to manipulation. Let's say you are proposing something unpopular, such as a 10% tax increase. Only 40% of MPs support it.
In a plurality vote you can get the measure passed by creating two artificial alternatives - one leave taxes the same, and one to cut taxes by 10%. If half of those opposed to the measure vote each way, then the tax increase has the most votes and will pass.
No legislative assembly I am aware of uses plurality votes, at least partly for this reason.
I think this is a good point. I can see that issues around who gets to decide what question is asked and which options are presented could be quite contentious. Although, it seems to me that in the current situation, a decision has to be made one way or another between a certain number of quite well-defined options. It is really a 'fork in the road', where one path has to be chosen over the others. In that way, I think it is dissimilar to your tax increase example.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
8
Also, let's be clear THERE IS NO DEADLOCK. If nothing is passed then there is a very clear and perfectly simple way forward and it's a no-deal Brexit. Maybe not good, but clear and simple.
– DJClayworth
yesterday
3
I'm not sure it's correct to say no-deal would be imposed on MPs against their will. Invoking Article 50 involved accepting that unless a deal was agreed within two years, a no-deal Brexit would occur. This is what they agreed to. The fact that everyone is in denial about it now, and voting pointlessly against no deal instead of coming up with a workable actual plan doesn't change that
– Mohirl
17 hours ago
1
You say that plurality votes can be manipulated by splitting one of the camps but that's just as true of binary votes. For example, the 1999 referendum in Australia asked "Should we become a republic in this specific way, or stay as a constitutional monarchy?" This led to some republicans voting for the status quo because they didn't like the specific kind of republic being offered (the president would have been appointed by parliament, rather than directly elected by the people).
– David Richerby
16 hours ago
1
@Yakk It would have been perfectly possible to have a straight up yes/no vote on becoming a republic, and then a second vote on exactly what kind of republic. Brexit is somewhat different, because the UK can't unilaterally choose how that is implemented.
– David Richerby
14 hours ago
|
show 14 more comments
Plurality votes are notoriously open to manipulation. Let's say you are proposing something unpopular, such as a 10% tax increase. Only 40% of MPs support it.
In a plurality vote you can get the measure passed by creating two artificial alternatives - one leave taxes the same, and one to cut taxes by 10%. If half of those opposed to the measure vote each way, then the tax increase has the most votes and will pass.
No legislative assembly I am aware of uses plurality votes, at least partly for this reason.
I think this is a good point. I can see that issues around who gets to decide what question is asked and which options are presented could be quite contentious. Although, it seems to me that in the current situation, a decision has to be made one way or another between a certain number of quite well-defined options. It is really a 'fork in the road', where one path has to be chosen over the others. In that way, I think it is dissimilar to your tax increase example.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
8
Also, let's be clear THERE IS NO DEADLOCK. If nothing is passed then there is a very clear and perfectly simple way forward and it's a no-deal Brexit. Maybe not good, but clear and simple.
– DJClayworth
yesterday
3
I'm not sure it's correct to say no-deal would be imposed on MPs against their will. Invoking Article 50 involved accepting that unless a deal was agreed within two years, a no-deal Brexit would occur. This is what they agreed to. The fact that everyone is in denial about it now, and voting pointlessly against no deal instead of coming up with a workable actual plan doesn't change that
– Mohirl
17 hours ago
1
You say that plurality votes can be manipulated by splitting one of the camps but that's just as true of binary votes. For example, the 1999 referendum in Australia asked "Should we become a republic in this specific way, or stay as a constitutional monarchy?" This led to some republicans voting for the status quo because they didn't like the specific kind of republic being offered (the president would have been appointed by parliament, rather than directly elected by the people).
– David Richerby
16 hours ago
1
@Yakk It would have been perfectly possible to have a straight up yes/no vote on becoming a republic, and then a second vote on exactly what kind of republic. Brexit is somewhat different, because the UK can't unilaterally choose how that is implemented.
– David Richerby
14 hours ago
|
show 14 more comments
Plurality votes are notoriously open to manipulation. Let's say you are proposing something unpopular, such as a 10% tax increase. Only 40% of MPs support it.
In a plurality vote you can get the measure passed by creating two artificial alternatives - one leave taxes the same, and one to cut taxes by 10%. If half of those opposed to the measure vote each way, then the tax increase has the most votes and will pass.
No legislative assembly I am aware of uses plurality votes, at least partly for this reason.
Plurality votes are notoriously open to manipulation. Let's say you are proposing something unpopular, such as a 10% tax increase. Only 40% of MPs support it.
In a plurality vote you can get the measure passed by creating two artificial alternatives - one leave taxes the same, and one to cut taxes by 10%. If half of those opposed to the measure vote each way, then the tax increase has the most votes and will pass.
No legislative assembly I am aware of uses plurality votes, at least partly for this reason.
answered yesterday
DJClayworthDJClayworth
5,6482040
5,6482040
I think this is a good point. I can see that issues around who gets to decide what question is asked and which options are presented could be quite contentious. Although, it seems to me that in the current situation, a decision has to be made one way or another between a certain number of quite well-defined options. It is really a 'fork in the road', where one path has to be chosen over the others. In that way, I think it is dissimilar to your tax increase example.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
8
Also, let's be clear THERE IS NO DEADLOCK. If nothing is passed then there is a very clear and perfectly simple way forward and it's a no-deal Brexit. Maybe not good, but clear and simple.
– DJClayworth
yesterday
3
I'm not sure it's correct to say no-deal would be imposed on MPs against their will. Invoking Article 50 involved accepting that unless a deal was agreed within two years, a no-deal Brexit would occur. This is what they agreed to. The fact that everyone is in denial about it now, and voting pointlessly against no deal instead of coming up with a workable actual plan doesn't change that
– Mohirl
17 hours ago
1
You say that plurality votes can be manipulated by splitting one of the camps but that's just as true of binary votes. For example, the 1999 referendum in Australia asked "Should we become a republic in this specific way, or stay as a constitutional monarchy?" This led to some republicans voting for the status quo because they didn't like the specific kind of republic being offered (the president would have been appointed by parliament, rather than directly elected by the people).
– David Richerby
16 hours ago
1
@Yakk It would have been perfectly possible to have a straight up yes/no vote on becoming a republic, and then a second vote on exactly what kind of republic. Brexit is somewhat different, because the UK can't unilaterally choose how that is implemented.
– David Richerby
14 hours ago
|
show 14 more comments
I think this is a good point. I can see that issues around who gets to decide what question is asked and which options are presented could be quite contentious. Although, it seems to me that in the current situation, a decision has to be made one way or another between a certain number of quite well-defined options. It is really a 'fork in the road', where one path has to be chosen over the others. In that way, I think it is dissimilar to your tax increase example.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
8
Also, let's be clear THERE IS NO DEADLOCK. If nothing is passed then there is a very clear and perfectly simple way forward and it's a no-deal Brexit. Maybe not good, but clear and simple.
– DJClayworth
yesterday
3
I'm not sure it's correct to say no-deal would be imposed on MPs against their will. Invoking Article 50 involved accepting that unless a deal was agreed within two years, a no-deal Brexit would occur. This is what they agreed to. The fact that everyone is in denial about it now, and voting pointlessly against no deal instead of coming up with a workable actual plan doesn't change that
– Mohirl
17 hours ago
1
You say that plurality votes can be manipulated by splitting one of the camps but that's just as true of binary votes. For example, the 1999 referendum in Australia asked "Should we become a republic in this specific way, or stay as a constitutional monarchy?" This led to some republicans voting for the status quo because they didn't like the specific kind of republic being offered (the president would have been appointed by parliament, rather than directly elected by the people).
– David Richerby
16 hours ago
1
@Yakk It would have been perfectly possible to have a straight up yes/no vote on becoming a republic, and then a second vote on exactly what kind of republic. Brexit is somewhat different, because the UK can't unilaterally choose how that is implemented.
– David Richerby
14 hours ago
I think this is a good point. I can see that issues around who gets to decide what question is asked and which options are presented could be quite contentious. Although, it seems to me that in the current situation, a decision has to be made one way or another between a certain number of quite well-defined options. It is really a 'fork in the road', where one path has to be chosen over the others. In that way, I think it is dissimilar to your tax increase example.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
I think this is a good point. I can see that issues around who gets to decide what question is asked and which options are presented could be quite contentious. Although, it seems to me that in the current situation, a decision has to be made one way or another between a certain number of quite well-defined options. It is really a 'fork in the road', where one path has to be chosen over the others. In that way, I think it is dissimilar to your tax increase example.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
8
8
Also, let's be clear THERE IS NO DEADLOCK. If nothing is passed then there is a very clear and perfectly simple way forward and it's a no-deal Brexit. Maybe not good, but clear and simple.
– DJClayworth
yesterday
Also, let's be clear THERE IS NO DEADLOCK. If nothing is passed then there is a very clear and perfectly simple way forward and it's a no-deal Brexit. Maybe not good, but clear and simple.
– DJClayworth
yesterday
3
3
I'm not sure it's correct to say no-deal would be imposed on MPs against their will. Invoking Article 50 involved accepting that unless a deal was agreed within two years, a no-deal Brexit would occur. This is what they agreed to. The fact that everyone is in denial about it now, and voting pointlessly against no deal instead of coming up with a workable actual plan doesn't change that
– Mohirl
17 hours ago
I'm not sure it's correct to say no-deal would be imposed on MPs against their will. Invoking Article 50 involved accepting that unless a deal was agreed within two years, a no-deal Brexit would occur. This is what they agreed to. The fact that everyone is in denial about it now, and voting pointlessly against no deal instead of coming up with a workable actual plan doesn't change that
– Mohirl
17 hours ago
1
1
You say that plurality votes can be manipulated by splitting one of the camps but that's just as true of binary votes. For example, the 1999 referendum in Australia asked "Should we become a republic in this specific way, or stay as a constitutional monarchy?" This led to some republicans voting for the status quo because they didn't like the specific kind of republic being offered (the president would have been appointed by parliament, rather than directly elected by the people).
– David Richerby
16 hours ago
You say that plurality votes can be manipulated by splitting one of the camps but that's just as true of binary votes. For example, the 1999 referendum in Australia asked "Should we become a republic in this specific way, or stay as a constitutional monarchy?" This led to some republicans voting for the status quo because they didn't like the specific kind of republic being offered (the president would have been appointed by parliament, rather than directly elected by the people).
– David Richerby
16 hours ago
1
1
@Yakk It would have been perfectly possible to have a straight up yes/no vote on becoming a republic, and then a second vote on exactly what kind of republic. Brexit is somewhat different, because the UK can't unilaterally choose how that is implemented.
– David Richerby
14 hours ago
@Yakk It would have been perfectly possible to have a straight up yes/no vote on becoming a republic, and then a second vote on exactly what kind of republic. Brexit is somewhat different, because the UK can't unilaterally choose how that is implemented.
– David Richerby
14 hours ago
|
show 14 more comments
There is quite simply no mechanism in Parliament for a plurality vote among more than two options to exist. In order to have a plurality vote you would need to first pass a bill change to the Commons standing orders creating that mechanism, and the majority against the best predicted result would most like vote that bill down.
But even that might not work. The very next thing brought to vote might well be a binding vote to specifically cast down the result chosen from the plurality vote, and will have a majority backing that, so down it goes. There may or may not be procedures that would suffice to block this from coming to a vote, but blocking something with a known outcome from reaching the floor doesn't look like a democracy anymore.
7
@Time4Tea: My understanding of Parliamentary sovereignty is that it is utterly impossible for an act of Parliament to bind Parliament such that can't be undone with the very next binding vote.
– Joshua
yesterday
1
@Time4Tea They may have conceded away some powers, but as this whole mess shows, not irrevocably.
– Frank Hopkins
yesterday
2
"There is quite simply no mechanism in Parliament for a plurality vote...In order to have a plurality vote you would need to first pass a bill". That's not true, for two reasons: (1) Matters of procedure are normally dealt with by changes to the Commons standing orders, not by legislation. Any changes can be permanent, for a limited time, or limited to a specific motion. (2) Other forms of voting are not alien to the House of Commons. In particular, the election of Speaker uses a form of exhaustive ballot.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
3
" blocking something with a known outcome from reaching the floor doesn't look like a democracy anymore." Welcome to the US Senate.
– AShelly
yesterday
1
@Time4Tea No, parliament has not voted to give away its own sovereignty. The current deal would make it impossible for the UK to withdraw without breaking an international treaty. Parliament has sovereignty to choose to break treaties (although it very rarely does so).
– Martin Bonner
18 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
There is quite simply no mechanism in Parliament for a plurality vote among more than two options to exist. In order to have a plurality vote you would need to first pass a bill change to the Commons standing orders creating that mechanism, and the majority against the best predicted result would most like vote that bill down.
But even that might not work. The very next thing brought to vote might well be a binding vote to specifically cast down the result chosen from the plurality vote, and will have a majority backing that, so down it goes. There may or may not be procedures that would suffice to block this from coming to a vote, but blocking something with a known outcome from reaching the floor doesn't look like a democracy anymore.
7
@Time4Tea: My understanding of Parliamentary sovereignty is that it is utterly impossible for an act of Parliament to bind Parliament such that can't be undone with the very next binding vote.
– Joshua
yesterday
1
@Time4Tea They may have conceded away some powers, but as this whole mess shows, not irrevocably.
– Frank Hopkins
yesterday
2
"There is quite simply no mechanism in Parliament for a plurality vote...In order to have a plurality vote you would need to first pass a bill". That's not true, for two reasons: (1) Matters of procedure are normally dealt with by changes to the Commons standing orders, not by legislation. Any changes can be permanent, for a limited time, or limited to a specific motion. (2) Other forms of voting are not alien to the House of Commons. In particular, the election of Speaker uses a form of exhaustive ballot.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
3
" blocking something with a known outcome from reaching the floor doesn't look like a democracy anymore." Welcome to the US Senate.
– AShelly
yesterday
1
@Time4Tea No, parliament has not voted to give away its own sovereignty. The current deal would make it impossible for the UK to withdraw without breaking an international treaty. Parliament has sovereignty to choose to break treaties (although it very rarely does so).
– Martin Bonner
18 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
There is quite simply no mechanism in Parliament for a plurality vote among more than two options to exist. In order to have a plurality vote you would need to first pass a bill change to the Commons standing orders creating that mechanism, and the majority against the best predicted result would most like vote that bill down.
But even that might not work. The very next thing brought to vote might well be a binding vote to specifically cast down the result chosen from the plurality vote, and will have a majority backing that, so down it goes. There may or may not be procedures that would suffice to block this from coming to a vote, but blocking something with a known outcome from reaching the floor doesn't look like a democracy anymore.
There is quite simply no mechanism in Parliament for a plurality vote among more than two options to exist. In order to have a plurality vote you would need to first pass a bill change to the Commons standing orders creating that mechanism, and the majority against the best predicted result would most like vote that bill down.
But even that might not work. The very next thing brought to vote might well be a binding vote to specifically cast down the result chosen from the plurality vote, and will have a majority backing that, so down it goes. There may or may not be procedures that would suffice to block this from coming to a vote, but blocking something with a known outcome from reaching the floor doesn't look like a democracy anymore.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
JoshuaJoshua
702512
702512
7
@Time4Tea: My understanding of Parliamentary sovereignty is that it is utterly impossible for an act of Parliament to bind Parliament such that can't be undone with the very next binding vote.
– Joshua
yesterday
1
@Time4Tea They may have conceded away some powers, but as this whole mess shows, not irrevocably.
– Frank Hopkins
yesterday
2
"There is quite simply no mechanism in Parliament for a plurality vote...In order to have a plurality vote you would need to first pass a bill". That's not true, for two reasons: (1) Matters of procedure are normally dealt with by changes to the Commons standing orders, not by legislation. Any changes can be permanent, for a limited time, or limited to a specific motion. (2) Other forms of voting are not alien to the House of Commons. In particular, the election of Speaker uses a form of exhaustive ballot.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
3
" blocking something with a known outcome from reaching the floor doesn't look like a democracy anymore." Welcome to the US Senate.
– AShelly
yesterday
1
@Time4Tea No, parliament has not voted to give away its own sovereignty. The current deal would make it impossible for the UK to withdraw without breaking an international treaty. Parliament has sovereignty to choose to break treaties (although it very rarely does so).
– Martin Bonner
18 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
7
@Time4Tea: My understanding of Parliamentary sovereignty is that it is utterly impossible for an act of Parliament to bind Parliament such that can't be undone with the very next binding vote.
– Joshua
yesterday
1
@Time4Tea They may have conceded away some powers, but as this whole mess shows, not irrevocably.
– Frank Hopkins
yesterday
2
"There is quite simply no mechanism in Parliament for a plurality vote...In order to have a plurality vote you would need to first pass a bill". That's not true, for two reasons: (1) Matters of procedure are normally dealt with by changes to the Commons standing orders, not by legislation. Any changes can be permanent, for a limited time, or limited to a specific motion. (2) Other forms of voting are not alien to the House of Commons. In particular, the election of Speaker uses a form of exhaustive ballot.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
3
" blocking something with a known outcome from reaching the floor doesn't look like a democracy anymore." Welcome to the US Senate.
– AShelly
yesterday
1
@Time4Tea No, parliament has not voted to give away its own sovereignty. The current deal would make it impossible for the UK to withdraw without breaking an international treaty. Parliament has sovereignty to choose to break treaties (although it very rarely does so).
– Martin Bonner
18 hours ago
7
7
@Time4Tea: My understanding of Parliamentary sovereignty is that it is utterly impossible for an act of Parliament to bind Parliament such that can't be undone with the very next binding vote.
– Joshua
yesterday
@Time4Tea: My understanding of Parliamentary sovereignty is that it is utterly impossible for an act of Parliament to bind Parliament such that can't be undone with the very next binding vote.
– Joshua
yesterday
1
1
@Time4Tea They may have conceded away some powers, but as this whole mess shows, not irrevocably.
– Frank Hopkins
yesterday
@Time4Tea They may have conceded away some powers, but as this whole mess shows, not irrevocably.
– Frank Hopkins
yesterday
2
2
"There is quite simply no mechanism in Parliament for a plurality vote...In order to have a plurality vote you would need to first pass a bill". That's not true, for two reasons: (1) Matters of procedure are normally dealt with by changes to the Commons standing orders, not by legislation. Any changes can be permanent, for a limited time, or limited to a specific motion. (2) Other forms of voting are not alien to the House of Commons. In particular, the election of Speaker uses a form of exhaustive ballot.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
"There is quite simply no mechanism in Parliament for a plurality vote...In order to have a plurality vote you would need to first pass a bill". That's not true, for two reasons: (1) Matters of procedure are normally dealt with by changes to the Commons standing orders, not by legislation. Any changes can be permanent, for a limited time, or limited to a specific motion. (2) Other forms of voting are not alien to the House of Commons. In particular, the election of Speaker uses a form of exhaustive ballot.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
3
3
" blocking something with a known outcome from reaching the floor doesn't look like a democracy anymore." Welcome to the US Senate.
– AShelly
yesterday
" blocking something with a known outcome from reaching the floor doesn't look like a democracy anymore." Welcome to the US Senate.
– AShelly
yesterday
1
1
@Time4Tea No, parliament has not voted to give away its own sovereignty. The current deal would make it impossible for the UK to withdraw without breaking an international treaty. Parliament has sovereignty to choose to break treaties (although it very rarely does so).
– Martin Bonner
18 hours ago
@Time4Tea No, parliament has not voted to give away its own sovereignty. The current deal would make it impossible for the UK to withdraw without breaking an international treaty. Parliament has sovereignty to choose to break treaties (although it very rarely does so).
– Martin Bonner
18 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
There is no reason why these options could not be put to Parliament in series.
The House of Commons works by having the government propose motions that can be passed or rejected. Motions are allocated time to be debated and other MPs can propose amendments. Finally a series of votes on the amendments and finally on the motion (amended or otherwise) are held.
The problem is that on all but one day a year only the government gets to decide which motions are going to be voted on. And the government is mostly controlled by the Prime Minister, and Mrs May only wants one outcome: her deal is accepted.
As such it's extremely difficult to get votes on the other options. The best hope is for amendments to be accepted supporting those options, but even then the Speaker of the House gets to decide which amendments will be put to the vote so it's not always automatically possible to have them attached to a government motion.
So it's entirely possible, just very unlikely due to Theresa May.
6
"on all but one day a year only the government gets to decide which motions are going to be voted on": that's not true; it's 20 days per session.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
3
Putting options in a series is exactly what the government was doing this last couple of weeks.
– DJClayworth
yesterday
1
@DJClayworth there were amendments to block things like a no-deal crash out, and a few in favour of certain things but they failed due to the way they were presented and whipping. What has been suggested is a series of free votes, non-binding but indicative.
– user
21 hours ago
@DJClayworth Is it? As far as I can tell the government have only brought two options to the house: "this deal" (more than once) and "not no deal on March 29th". Backbench amendments have forced votes on some other options, but that's really not the same thing.
– Chris H
18 hours ago
add a comment |
There is no reason why these options could not be put to Parliament in series.
The House of Commons works by having the government propose motions that can be passed or rejected. Motions are allocated time to be debated and other MPs can propose amendments. Finally a series of votes on the amendments and finally on the motion (amended or otherwise) are held.
The problem is that on all but one day a year only the government gets to decide which motions are going to be voted on. And the government is mostly controlled by the Prime Minister, and Mrs May only wants one outcome: her deal is accepted.
As such it's extremely difficult to get votes on the other options. The best hope is for amendments to be accepted supporting those options, but even then the Speaker of the House gets to decide which amendments will be put to the vote so it's not always automatically possible to have them attached to a government motion.
So it's entirely possible, just very unlikely due to Theresa May.
6
"on all but one day a year only the government gets to decide which motions are going to be voted on": that's not true; it's 20 days per session.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
3
Putting options in a series is exactly what the government was doing this last couple of weeks.
– DJClayworth
yesterday
1
@DJClayworth there were amendments to block things like a no-deal crash out, and a few in favour of certain things but they failed due to the way they were presented and whipping. What has been suggested is a series of free votes, non-binding but indicative.
– user
21 hours ago
@DJClayworth Is it? As far as I can tell the government have only brought two options to the house: "this deal" (more than once) and "not no deal on March 29th". Backbench amendments have forced votes on some other options, but that's really not the same thing.
– Chris H
18 hours ago
add a comment |
There is no reason why these options could not be put to Parliament in series.
The House of Commons works by having the government propose motions that can be passed or rejected. Motions are allocated time to be debated and other MPs can propose amendments. Finally a series of votes on the amendments and finally on the motion (amended or otherwise) are held.
The problem is that on all but one day a year only the government gets to decide which motions are going to be voted on. And the government is mostly controlled by the Prime Minister, and Mrs May only wants one outcome: her deal is accepted.
As such it's extremely difficult to get votes on the other options. The best hope is for amendments to be accepted supporting those options, but even then the Speaker of the House gets to decide which amendments will be put to the vote so it's not always automatically possible to have them attached to a government motion.
So it's entirely possible, just very unlikely due to Theresa May.
There is no reason why these options could not be put to Parliament in series.
The House of Commons works by having the government propose motions that can be passed or rejected. Motions are allocated time to be debated and other MPs can propose amendments. Finally a series of votes on the amendments and finally on the motion (amended or otherwise) are held.
The problem is that on all but one day a year only the government gets to decide which motions are going to be voted on. And the government is mostly controlled by the Prime Minister, and Mrs May only wants one outcome: her deal is accepted.
As such it's extremely difficult to get votes on the other options. The best hope is for amendments to be accepted supporting those options, but even then the Speaker of the House gets to decide which amendments will be put to the vote so it's not always automatically possible to have them attached to a government motion.
So it's entirely possible, just very unlikely due to Theresa May.
edited yesterday
Steve Melnikoff
4,20211836
4,20211836
answered yesterday
useruser
8,91821936
8,91821936
6
"on all but one day a year only the government gets to decide which motions are going to be voted on": that's not true; it's 20 days per session.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
3
Putting options in a series is exactly what the government was doing this last couple of weeks.
– DJClayworth
yesterday
1
@DJClayworth there were amendments to block things like a no-deal crash out, and a few in favour of certain things but they failed due to the way they were presented and whipping. What has been suggested is a series of free votes, non-binding but indicative.
– user
21 hours ago
@DJClayworth Is it? As far as I can tell the government have only brought two options to the house: "this deal" (more than once) and "not no deal on March 29th". Backbench amendments have forced votes on some other options, but that's really not the same thing.
– Chris H
18 hours ago
add a comment |
6
"on all but one day a year only the government gets to decide which motions are going to be voted on": that's not true; it's 20 days per session.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
3
Putting options in a series is exactly what the government was doing this last couple of weeks.
– DJClayworth
yesterday
1
@DJClayworth there were amendments to block things like a no-deal crash out, and a few in favour of certain things but they failed due to the way they were presented and whipping. What has been suggested is a series of free votes, non-binding but indicative.
– user
21 hours ago
@DJClayworth Is it? As far as I can tell the government have only brought two options to the house: "this deal" (more than once) and "not no deal on March 29th". Backbench amendments have forced votes on some other options, but that's really not the same thing.
– Chris H
18 hours ago
6
6
"on all but one day a year only the government gets to decide which motions are going to be voted on": that's not true; it's 20 days per session.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
"on all but one day a year only the government gets to decide which motions are going to be voted on": that's not true; it's 20 days per session.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
3
3
Putting options in a series is exactly what the government was doing this last couple of weeks.
– DJClayworth
yesterday
Putting options in a series is exactly what the government was doing this last couple of weeks.
– DJClayworth
yesterday
1
1
@DJClayworth there were amendments to block things like a no-deal crash out, and a few in favour of certain things but they failed due to the way they were presented and whipping. What has been suggested is a series of free votes, non-binding but indicative.
– user
21 hours ago
@DJClayworth there were amendments to block things like a no-deal crash out, and a few in favour of certain things but they failed due to the way they were presented and whipping. What has been suggested is a series of free votes, non-binding but indicative.
– user
21 hours ago
@DJClayworth Is it? As far as I can tell the government have only brought two options to the house: "this deal" (more than once) and "not no deal on March 29th". Backbench amendments have forced votes on some other options, but that's really not the same thing.
– Chris H
18 hours ago
@DJClayworth Is it? As far as I can tell the government have only brought two options to the house: "this deal" (more than once) and "not no deal on March 29th". Backbench amendments have forced votes on some other options, but that's really not the same thing.
– Chris H
18 hours ago
add a comment |
So, why not break the deadlock by plurality?
As of now, the British government is no longer in deadlock. There has already been a vote on all of the listed options except for option #5 and only the second option (asking for an extension) managed to receive more than 50% of the votes. Thus Theresa May asked for a three month delay on March 20th, currently pending approval by the European Council. Holding a plurality vote would be redundant as no other option had more than 50% of the MPs support.
In three months time (presuming the EU will grant the UK an extension), Parliament will again have to choose between the options, but this time asking for an extension would no longer be possible.
2
What you say is true. However, option 2 is only a temporary solution and will run out of steam eventually (a decision will have to be made). At that point, we will be back in this situation, with option 2 no longer on the list.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
2
Isn't the extension just pushing the problem forward? It's not like extending solves the issues at hand, if anything it adds problems when it conflicts with the EU elections. Indeed, the UK will still need to make a plan for what they will do during that extension..
– JJJ
yesterday
@JJJ it is pushing the problem forward, however its technically a way out of the deadlock. In three months time the Parliament will have to choose between the remaining 4 options.
– JonathanReez
yesterday
7
The EU replied that it won't approve an extension without a deal being approved in Westminster: bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47636011 So there won't be any no-deal extensions, in all likelihood.
– Fizz
yesterday
1
The reason that the OP is suggesting a plurality vote (where something can pass without a majority) is because no course of action has support of a majority. However as others have pointed out, plurality vote has its problems too. This is what Ranked Choice (instant runoff) voting was designed for. But that’s unlikely to happen either.
– Alex
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
So, why not break the deadlock by plurality?
As of now, the British government is no longer in deadlock. There has already been a vote on all of the listed options except for option #5 and only the second option (asking for an extension) managed to receive more than 50% of the votes. Thus Theresa May asked for a three month delay on March 20th, currently pending approval by the European Council. Holding a plurality vote would be redundant as no other option had more than 50% of the MPs support.
In three months time (presuming the EU will grant the UK an extension), Parliament will again have to choose between the options, but this time asking for an extension would no longer be possible.
2
What you say is true. However, option 2 is only a temporary solution and will run out of steam eventually (a decision will have to be made). At that point, we will be back in this situation, with option 2 no longer on the list.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
2
Isn't the extension just pushing the problem forward? It's not like extending solves the issues at hand, if anything it adds problems when it conflicts with the EU elections. Indeed, the UK will still need to make a plan for what they will do during that extension..
– JJJ
yesterday
@JJJ it is pushing the problem forward, however its technically a way out of the deadlock. In three months time the Parliament will have to choose between the remaining 4 options.
– JonathanReez
yesterday
7
The EU replied that it won't approve an extension without a deal being approved in Westminster: bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47636011 So there won't be any no-deal extensions, in all likelihood.
– Fizz
yesterday
1
The reason that the OP is suggesting a plurality vote (where something can pass without a majority) is because no course of action has support of a majority. However as others have pointed out, plurality vote has its problems too. This is what Ranked Choice (instant runoff) voting was designed for. But that’s unlikely to happen either.
– Alex
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
So, why not break the deadlock by plurality?
As of now, the British government is no longer in deadlock. There has already been a vote on all of the listed options except for option #5 and only the second option (asking for an extension) managed to receive more than 50% of the votes. Thus Theresa May asked for a three month delay on March 20th, currently pending approval by the European Council. Holding a plurality vote would be redundant as no other option had more than 50% of the MPs support.
In three months time (presuming the EU will grant the UK an extension), Parliament will again have to choose between the options, but this time asking for an extension would no longer be possible.
So, why not break the deadlock by plurality?
As of now, the British government is no longer in deadlock. There has already been a vote on all of the listed options except for option #5 and only the second option (asking for an extension) managed to receive more than 50% of the votes. Thus Theresa May asked for a three month delay on March 20th, currently pending approval by the European Council. Holding a plurality vote would be redundant as no other option had more than 50% of the MPs support.
In three months time (presuming the EU will grant the UK an extension), Parliament will again have to choose between the options, but this time asking for an extension would no longer be possible.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
JonathanReezJonathanReez
14k1580158
14k1580158
2
What you say is true. However, option 2 is only a temporary solution and will run out of steam eventually (a decision will have to be made). At that point, we will be back in this situation, with option 2 no longer on the list.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
2
Isn't the extension just pushing the problem forward? It's not like extending solves the issues at hand, if anything it adds problems when it conflicts with the EU elections. Indeed, the UK will still need to make a plan for what they will do during that extension..
– JJJ
yesterday
@JJJ it is pushing the problem forward, however its technically a way out of the deadlock. In three months time the Parliament will have to choose between the remaining 4 options.
– JonathanReez
yesterday
7
The EU replied that it won't approve an extension without a deal being approved in Westminster: bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47636011 So there won't be any no-deal extensions, in all likelihood.
– Fizz
yesterday
1
The reason that the OP is suggesting a plurality vote (where something can pass without a majority) is because no course of action has support of a majority. However as others have pointed out, plurality vote has its problems too. This is what Ranked Choice (instant runoff) voting was designed for. But that’s unlikely to happen either.
– Alex
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
2
What you say is true. However, option 2 is only a temporary solution and will run out of steam eventually (a decision will have to be made). At that point, we will be back in this situation, with option 2 no longer on the list.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
2
Isn't the extension just pushing the problem forward? It's not like extending solves the issues at hand, if anything it adds problems when it conflicts with the EU elections. Indeed, the UK will still need to make a plan for what they will do during that extension..
– JJJ
yesterday
@JJJ it is pushing the problem forward, however its technically a way out of the deadlock. In three months time the Parliament will have to choose between the remaining 4 options.
– JonathanReez
yesterday
7
The EU replied that it won't approve an extension without a deal being approved in Westminster: bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47636011 So there won't be any no-deal extensions, in all likelihood.
– Fizz
yesterday
1
The reason that the OP is suggesting a plurality vote (where something can pass without a majority) is because no course of action has support of a majority. However as others have pointed out, plurality vote has its problems too. This is what Ranked Choice (instant runoff) voting was designed for. But that’s unlikely to happen either.
– Alex
yesterday
2
2
What you say is true. However, option 2 is only a temporary solution and will run out of steam eventually (a decision will have to be made). At that point, we will be back in this situation, with option 2 no longer on the list.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
What you say is true. However, option 2 is only a temporary solution and will run out of steam eventually (a decision will have to be made). At that point, we will be back in this situation, with option 2 no longer on the list.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
2
2
Isn't the extension just pushing the problem forward? It's not like extending solves the issues at hand, if anything it adds problems when it conflicts with the EU elections. Indeed, the UK will still need to make a plan for what they will do during that extension..
– JJJ
yesterday
Isn't the extension just pushing the problem forward? It's not like extending solves the issues at hand, if anything it adds problems when it conflicts with the EU elections. Indeed, the UK will still need to make a plan for what they will do during that extension..
– JJJ
yesterday
@JJJ it is pushing the problem forward, however its technically a way out of the deadlock. In three months time the Parliament will have to choose between the remaining 4 options.
– JonathanReez
yesterday
@JJJ it is pushing the problem forward, however its technically a way out of the deadlock. In three months time the Parliament will have to choose between the remaining 4 options.
– JonathanReez
yesterday
7
7
The EU replied that it won't approve an extension without a deal being approved in Westminster: bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47636011 So there won't be any no-deal extensions, in all likelihood.
– Fizz
yesterday
The EU replied that it won't approve an extension without a deal being approved in Westminster: bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47636011 So there won't be any no-deal extensions, in all likelihood.
– Fizz
yesterday
1
1
The reason that the OP is suggesting a plurality vote (where something can pass without a majority) is because no course of action has support of a majority. However as others have pointed out, plurality vote has its problems too. This is what Ranked Choice (instant runoff) voting was designed for. But that’s unlikely to happen either.
– Alex
yesterday
The reason that the OP is suggesting a plurality vote (where something can pass without a majority) is because no course of action has support of a majority. However as others have pointed out, plurality vote has its problems too. This is what Ranked Choice (instant runoff) voting was designed for. But that’s unlikely to happen either.
– Alex
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
Let's say the government proposes this and this vote is carried out. Then a majority of MPs are getting something they don't want (otherwise that outcome could be passed as a normal vote by simple majority). In particular, the government may get an outcome it doesn't want, the majority of parliament doesn't want but would have to carry it out (well, that would be part of the earlier proposition of this system, otherwise the vote would be meaningless). This isn't ideal.
Aside from that, those options aren't a one-time thing. These actions have consequences and once you choose an option, you have to follow through:
For example, if you accept the current deal, many laws will have to
be passed (which requires a majority, again).If they decide to keep on negotiating the impasse isn't broken, they
will just have one more option if a new deal is negotiated, but
there may be no majority for that one either.Leaving without a deal is like opening Pandora's box, it's not
something that solves all existing problems, instead many more
choices (e.g. what will be the policy on allowing EU citizens coming
to the UK? How are goods coming in checked?) will have to be made
and that requires a majority in parliament to do so.A second referendum also doesn't help if there is no majority in
favour of it. In the proposed plurality vote, do MPs commit to
respecting the outcome? Even if that means disrespecting the current
referendum outcome? If the outcome is to leave without a deal, what
instructions does that give the parliament / government with regards
to the previous point?
All in all, it's not that easy. And if MPs do decide they want to work together to get a certain outcome, they can just do that. They wouldn't need the plurality vote. For example, the leaders over the parties could meet, decide an outcome, whip their MPs and don't care about a few people not voting with their decision. Obviously, the problem is that the parties aren't willing to compromise in such a controlled setting, they're not going to allow a vote (for which they don't really know the outcome) and then magically decide to respect that.
I see what you are saying; however, the more possible options there are available in a given situation, the smaller the chance will be of finding a majority agreement on any particular one (because the vote is being split more and more). In that case, to me, a system that relies on a majority vote seems a little inappropriate. Is there anything in UK Parliament procedure that would prevent such a plurality vote being held, in principle?
– Time4Tea
yesterday
1
@Time4Tea I am not that familiar with the system, but I think they could agree to hold the vote and agree* to uphold the outcome. The problem is, parliamentarians won't be likely to do that. *I'm not sure to what extent they can agree, I think there's no problem with just agreeing, but it's probably difficult to make that agreement binding by law (though that might be a different question).
– JJJ
yesterday
2
@Time4Tea normally there's no problem with not having a majority to do anything; the status quo prevails and nothing changes. Belgium managed without a government at all for about 500 days a few years ago. However, there was a majority for Article 50 two years ago. That gets us here. Like parking your car on a railway crossing, doing nothing does not mean status quo, it means getting hit by a train.
– pjc50
yesterday
1
@Time4Tea In any system which purports to be a democracy, you can't fix problems by making one-off changes to the rules. If it is clear that elected representatives don't actually "represent" anything beyond whatever they feel like doing on an ad hoc basis, that is a bigger political problem than a disorderly exit from the EU.
– alephzero
yesterday
2
@alephzero why not, if a majority of representatives are willing to support such a one-off, exceptional deviation? That would seem fairly democratic to me.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
|
show 4 more comments
Let's say the government proposes this and this vote is carried out. Then a majority of MPs are getting something they don't want (otherwise that outcome could be passed as a normal vote by simple majority). In particular, the government may get an outcome it doesn't want, the majority of parliament doesn't want but would have to carry it out (well, that would be part of the earlier proposition of this system, otherwise the vote would be meaningless). This isn't ideal.
Aside from that, those options aren't a one-time thing. These actions have consequences and once you choose an option, you have to follow through:
For example, if you accept the current deal, many laws will have to
be passed (which requires a majority, again).If they decide to keep on negotiating the impasse isn't broken, they
will just have one more option if a new deal is negotiated, but
there may be no majority for that one either.Leaving without a deal is like opening Pandora's box, it's not
something that solves all existing problems, instead many more
choices (e.g. what will be the policy on allowing EU citizens coming
to the UK? How are goods coming in checked?) will have to be made
and that requires a majority in parliament to do so.A second referendum also doesn't help if there is no majority in
favour of it. In the proposed plurality vote, do MPs commit to
respecting the outcome? Even if that means disrespecting the current
referendum outcome? If the outcome is to leave without a deal, what
instructions does that give the parliament / government with regards
to the previous point?
All in all, it's not that easy. And if MPs do decide they want to work together to get a certain outcome, they can just do that. They wouldn't need the plurality vote. For example, the leaders over the parties could meet, decide an outcome, whip their MPs and don't care about a few people not voting with their decision. Obviously, the problem is that the parties aren't willing to compromise in such a controlled setting, they're not going to allow a vote (for which they don't really know the outcome) and then magically decide to respect that.
I see what you are saying; however, the more possible options there are available in a given situation, the smaller the chance will be of finding a majority agreement on any particular one (because the vote is being split more and more). In that case, to me, a system that relies on a majority vote seems a little inappropriate. Is there anything in UK Parliament procedure that would prevent such a plurality vote being held, in principle?
– Time4Tea
yesterday
1
@Time4Tea I am not that familiar with the system, but I think they could agree to hold the vote and agree* to uphold the outcome. The problem is, parliamentarians won't be likely to do that. *I'm not sure to what extent they can agree, I think there's no problem with just agreeing, but it's probably difficult to make that agreement binding by law (though that might be a different question).
– JJJ
yesterday
2
@Time4Tea normally there's no problem with not having a majority to do anything; the status quo prevails and nothing changes. Belgium managed without a government at all for about 500 days a few years ago. However, there was a majority for Article 50 two years ago. That gets us here. Like parking your car on a railway crossing, doing nothing does not mean status quo, it means getting hit by a train.
– pjc50
yesterday
1
@Time4Tea In any system which purports to be a democracy, you can't fix problems by making one-off changes to the rules. If it is clear that elected representatives don't actually "represent" anything beyond whatever they feel like doing on an ad hoc basis, that is a bigger political problem than a disorderly exit from the EU.
– alephzero
yesterday
2
@alephzero why not, if a majority of representatives are willing to support such a one-off, exceptional deviation? That would seem fairly democratic to me.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
|
show 4 more comments
Let's say the government proposes this and this vote is carried out. Then a majority of MPs are getting something they don't want (otherwise that outcome could be passed as a normal vote by simple majority). In particular, the government may get an outcome it doesn't want, the majority of parliament doesn't want but would have to carry it out (well, that would be part of the earlier proposition of this system, otherwise the vote would be meaningless). This isn't ideal.
Aside from that, those options aren't a one-time thing. These actions have consequences and once you choose an option, you have to follow through:
For example, if you accept the current deal, many laws will have to
be passed (which requires a majority, again).If they decide to keep on negotiating the impasse isn't broken, they
will just have one more option if a new deal is negotiated, but
there may be no majority for that one either.Leaving without a deal is like opening Pandora's box, it's not
something that solves all existing problems, instead many more
choices (e.g. what will be the policy on allowing EU citizens coming
to the UK? How are goods coming in checked?) will have to be made
and that requires a majority in parliament to do so.A second referendum also doesn't help if there is no majority in
favour of it. In the proposed plurality vote, do MPs commit to
respecting the outcome? Even if that means disrespecting the current
referendum outcome? If the outcome is to leave without a deal, what
instructions does that give the parliament / government with regards
to the previous point?
All in all, it's not that easy. And if MPs do decide they want to work together to get a certain outcome, they can just do that. They wouldn't need the plurality vote. For example, the leaders over the parties could meet, decide an outcome, whip their MPs and don't care about a few people not voting with their decision. Obviously, the problem is that the parties aren't willing to compromise in such a controlled setting, they're not going to allow a vote (for which they don't really know the outcome) and then magically decide to respect that.
Let's say the government proposes this and this vote is carried out. Then a majority of MPs are getting something they don't want (otherwise that outcome could be passed as a normal vote by simple majority). In particular, the government may get an outcome it doesn't want, the majority of parliament doesn't want but would have to carry it out (well, that would be part of the earlier proposition of this system, otherwise the vote would be meaningless). This isn't ideal.
Aside from that, those options aren't a one-time thing. These actions have consequences and once you choose an option, you have to follow through:
For example, if you accept the current deal, many laws will have to
be passed (which requires a majority, again).If they decide to keep on negotiating the impasse isn't broken, they
will just have one more option if a new deal is negotiated, but
there may be no majority for that one either.Leaving without a deal is like opening Pandora's box, it's not
something that solves all existing problems, instead many more
choices (e.g. what will be the policy on allowing EU citizens coming
to the UK? How are goods coming in checked?) will have to be made
and that requires a majority in parliament to do so.A second referendum also doesn't help if there is no majority in
favour of it. In the proposed plurality vote, do MPs commit to
respecting the outcome? Even if that means disrespecting the current
referendum outcome? If the outcome is to leave without a deal, what
instructions does that give the parliament / government with regards
to the previous point?
All in all, it's not that easy. And if MPs do decide they want to work together to get a certain outcome, they can just do that. They wouldn't need the plurality vote. For example, the leaders over the parties could meet, decide an outcome, whip their MPs and don't care about a few people not voting with their decision. Obviously, the problem is that the parties aren't willing to compromise in such a controlled setting, they're not going to allow a vote (for which they don't really know the outcome) and then magically decide to respect that.
answered yesterday
JJJJJJ
4,86822144
4,86822144
I see what you are saying; however, the more possible options there are available in a given situation, the smaller the chance will be of finding a majority agreement on any particular one (because the vote is being split more and more). In that case, to me, a system that relies on a majority vote seems a little inappropriate. Is there anything in UK Parliament procedure that would prevent such a plurality vote being held, in principle?
– Time4Tea
yesterday
1
@Time4Tea I am not that familiar with the system, but I think they could agree to hold the vote and agree* to uphold the outcome. The problem is, parliamentarians won't be likely to do that. *I'm not sure to what extent they can agree, I think there's no problem with just agreeing, but it's probably difficult to make that agreement binding by law (though that might be a different question).
– JJJ
yesterday
2
@Time4Tea normally there's no problem with not having a majority to do anything; the status quo prevails and nothing changes. Belgium managed without a government at all for about 500 days a few years ago. However, there was a majority for Article 50 two years ago. That gets us here. Like parking your car on a railway crossing, doing nothing does not mean status quo, it means getting hit by a train.
– pjc50
yesterday
1
@Time4Tea In any system which purports to be a democracy, you can't fix problems by making one-off changes to the rules. If it is clear that elected representatives don't actually "represent" anything beyond whatever they feel like doing on an ad hoc basis, that is a bigger political problem than a disorderly exit from the EU.
– alephzero
yesterday
2
@alephzero why not, if a majority of representatives are willing to support such a one-off, exceptional deviation? That would seem fairly democratic to me.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
|
show 4 more comments
I see what you are saying; however, the more possible options there are available in a given situation, the smaller the chance will be of finding a majority agreement on any particular one (because the vote is being split more and more). In that case, to me, a system that relies on a majority vote seems a little inappropriate. Is there anything in UK Parliament procedure that would prevent such a plurality vote being held, in principle?
– Time4Tea
yesterday
1
@Time4Tea I am not that familiar with the system, but I think they could agree to hold the vote and agree* to uphold the outcome. The problem is, parliamentarians won't be likely to do that. *I'm not sure to what extent they can agree, I think there's no problem with just agreeing, but it's probably difficult to make that agreement binding by law (though that might be a different question).
– JJJ
yesterday
2
@Time4Tea normally there's no problem with not having a majority to do anything; the status quo prevails and nothing changes. Belgium managed without a government at all for about 500 days a few years ago. However, there was a majority for Article 50 two years ago. That gets us here. Like parking your car on a railway crossing, doing nothing does not mean status quo, it means getting hit by a train.
– pjc50
yesterday
1
@Time4Tea In any system which purports to be a democracy, you can't fix problems by making one-off changes to the rules. If it is clear that elected representatives don't actually "represent" anything beyond whatever they feel like doing on an ad hoc basis, that is a bigger political problem than a disorderly exit from the EU.
– alephzero
yesterday
2
@alephzero why not, if a majority of representatives are willing to support such a one-off, exceptional deviation? That would seem fairly democratic to me.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
I see what you are saying; however, the more possible options there are available in a given situation, the smaller the chance will be of finding a majority agreement on any particular one (because the vote is being split more and more). In that case, to me, a system that relies on a majority vote seems a little inappropriate. Is there anything in UK Parliament procedure that would prevent such a plurality vote being held, in principle?
– Time4Tea
yesterday
I see what you are saying; however, the more possible options there are available in a given situation, the smaller the chance will be of finding a majority agreement on any particular one (because the vote is being split more and more). In that case, to me, a system that relies on a majority vote seems a little inappropriate. Is there anything in UK Parliament procedure that would prevent such a plurality vote being held, in principle?
– Time4Tea
yesterday
1
1
@Time4Tea I am not that familiar with the system, but I think they could agree to hold the vote and agree* to uphold the outcome. The problem is, parliamentarians won't be likely to do that. *I'm not sure to what extent they can agree, I think there's no problem with just agreeing, but it's probably difficult to make that agreement binding by law (though that might be a different question).
– JJJ
yesterday
@Time4Tea I am not that familiar with the system, but I think they could agree to hold the vote and agree* to uphold the outcome. The problem is, parliamentarians won't be likely to do that. *I'm not sure to what extent they can agree, I think there's no problem with just agreeing, but it's probably difficult to make that agreement binding by law (though that might be a different question).
– JJJ
yesterday
2
2
@Time4Tea normally there's no problem with not having a majority to do anything; the status quo prevails and nothing changes. Belgium managed without a government at all for about 500 days a few years ago. However, there was a majority for Article 50 two years ago. That gets us here. Like parking your car on a railway crossing, doing nothing does not mean status quo, it means getting hit by a train.
– pjc50
yesterday
@Time4Tea normally there's no problem with not having a majority to do anything; the status quo prevails and nothing changes. Belgium managed without a government at all for about 500 days a few years ago. However, there was a majority for Article 50 two years ago. That gets us here. Like parking your car on a railway crossing, doing nothing does not mean status quo, it means getting hit by a train.
– pjc50
yesterday
1
1
@Time4Tea In any system which purports to be a democracy, you can't fix problems by making one-off changes to the rules. If it is clear that elected representatives don't actually "represent" anything beyond whatever they feel like doing on an ad hoc basis, that is a bigger political problem than a disorderly exit from the EU.
– alephzero
yesterday
@Time4Tea In any system which purports to be a democracy, you can't fix problems by making one-off changes to the rules. If it is clear that elected representatives don't actually "represent" anything beyond whatever they feel like doing on an ad hoc basis, that is a bigger political problem than a disorderly exit from the EU.
– alephzero
yesterday
2
2
@alephzero why not, if a majority of representatives are willing to support such a one-off, exceptional deviation? That would seem fairly democratic to me.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
@alephzero why not, if a majority of representatives are willing to support such a one-off, exceptional deviation? That would seem fairly democratic to me.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
|
show 4 more comments
Starting at the position that the UK voted by itself that they wanted to leave the UK.
Looking at this from a continental view:
You want out? So…
You want to discuss terms? Yes... we had an agreement with your representative.
You say no?... now what do you want? In or out? In does not appear to be a situation we want to be in anymore? When next are you going to take us hostage?
The whole point is that if the UK wants out they should be prepared to make a deal and be prepared. That last bit appears to be a bit neglected.
New contributor
3
Sorry, but I don't think this really answers the question of how/whether the political impasse could be resolved by a plurality vote in the UK Parliament.
– Time4Tea
9 hours ago
Agree, but this just shows the impasse. The British people voted to get out of the EU. But to my "continental" view it appears that they have no clue as to the way that they want to leave.
– Paul Palmpje
9 hours ago
1
I think the problem is that there is no majority agreement on the way in which the UK should leave, hence the 'impasse'. Which comes back to my original point/question: if it is not possible to reach a majority decision, then why not go with whichever option has the most support?
– Time4Tea
9 hours ago
It appears that your suggestion has no legal way. So what's next? The Brits want out... but they do not agree themselves on the way out?
– Paul Palmpje
9 hours ago
Some of the other answers have indicated that there is a legal way such a vote could be held in the UK Parliament (if MPs agreed to it), but it isn't likely to happen. From where I'm standing, a no-deal exit seems to be the most likely scenario now, given it is the default outcome.
– Time4Tea
9 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
Starting at the position that the UK voted by itself that they wanted to leave the UK.
Looking at this from a continental view:
You want out? So…
You want to discuss terms? Yes... we had an agreement with your representative.
You say no?... now what do you want? In or out? In does not appear to be a situation we want to be in anymore? When next are you going to take us hostage?
The whole point is that if the UK wants out they should be prepared to make a deal and be prepared. That last bit appears to be a bit neglected.
New contributor
3
Sorry, but I don't think this really answers the question of how/whether the political impasse could be resolved by a plurality vote in the UK Parliament.
– Time4Tea
9 hours ago
Agree, but this just shows the impasse. The British people voted to get out of the EU. But to my "continental" view it appears that they have no clue as to the way that they want to leave.
– Paul Palmpje
9 hours ago
1
I think the problem is that there is no majority agreement on the way in which the UK should leave, hence the 'impasse'. Which comes back to my original point/question: if it is not possible to reach a majority decision, then why not go with whichever option has the most support?
– Time4Tea
9 hours ago
It appears that your suggestion has no legal way. So what's next? The Brits want out... but they do not agree themselves on the way out?
– Paul Palmpje
9 hours ago
Some of the other answers have indicated that there is a legal way such a vote could be held in the UK Parliament (if MPs agreed to it), but it isn't likely to happen. From where I'm standing, a no-deal exit seems to be the most likely scenario now, given it is the default outcome.
– Time4Tea
9 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
Starting at the position that the UK voted by itself that they wanted to leave the UK.
Looking at this from a continental view:
You want out? So…
You want to discuss terms? Yes... we had an agreement with your representative.
You say no?... now what do you want? In or out? In does not appear to be a situation we want to be in anymore? When next are you going to take us hostage?
The whole point is that if the UK wants out they should be prepared to make a deal and be prepared. That last bit appears to be a bit neglected.
New contributor
Starting at the position that the UK voted by itself that they wanted to leave the UK.
Looking at this from a continental view:
You want out? So…
You want to discuss terms? Yes... we had an agreement with your representative.
You say no?... now what do you want? In or out? In does not appear to be a situation we want to be in anymore? When next are you going to take us hostage?
The whole point is that if the UK wants out they should be prepared to make a deal and be prepared. That last bit appears to be a bit neglected.
New contributor
edited 9 hours ago
New contributor
answered 10 hours ago
Paul PalmpjePaul Palmpje
1071
1071
New contributor
New contributor
3
Sorry, but I don't think this really answers the question of how/whether the political impasse could be resolved by a plurality vote in the UK Parliament.
– Time4Tea
9 hours ago
Agree, but this just shows the impasse. The British people voted to get out of the EU. But to my "continental" view it appears that they have no clue as to the way that they want to leave.
– Paul Palmpje
9 hours ago
1
I think the problem is that there is no majority agreement on the way in which the UK should leave, hence the 'impasse'. Which comes back to my original point/question: if it is not possible to reach a majority decision, then why not go with whichever option has the most support?
– Time4Tea
9 hours ago
It appears that your suggestion has no legal way. So what's next? The Brits want out... but they do not agree themselves on the way out?
– Paul Palmpje
9 hours ago
Some of the other answers have indicated that there is a legal way such a vote could be held in the UK Parliament (if MPs agreed to it), but it isn't likely to happen. From where I'm standing, a no-deal exit seems to be the most likely scenario now, given it is the default outcome.
– Time4Tea
9 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
3
Sorry, but I don't think this really answers the question of how/whether the political impasse could be resolved by a plurality vote in the UK Parliament.
– Time4Tea
9 hours ago
Agree, but this just shows the impasse. The British people voted to get out of the EU. But to my "continental" view it appears that they have no clue as to the way that they want to leave.
– Paul Palmpje
9 hours ago
1
I think the problem is that there is no majority agreement on the way in which the UK should leave, hence the 'impasse'. Which comes back to my original point/question: if it is not possible to reach a majority decision, then why not go with whichever option has the most support?
– Time4Tea
9 hours ago
It appears that your suggestion has no legal way. So what's next? The Brits want out... but they do not agree themselves on the way out?
– Paul Palmpje
9 hours ago
Some of the other answers have indicated that there is a legal way such a vote could be held in the UK Parliament (if MPs agreed to it), but it isn't likely to happen. From where I'm standing, a no-deal exit seems to be the most likely scenario now, given it is the default outcome.
– Time4Tea
9 hours ago
3
3
Sorry, but I don't think this really answers the question of how/whether the political impasse could be resolved by a plurality vote in the UK Parliament.
– Time4Tea
9 hours ago
Sorry, but I don't think this really answers the question of how/whether the political impasse could be resolved by a plurality vote in the UK Parliament.
– Time4Tea
9 hours ago
Agree, but this just shows the impasse. The British people voted to get out of the EU. But to my "continental" view it appears that they have no clue as to the way that they want to leave.
– Paul Palmpje
9 hours ago
Agree, but this just shows the impasse. The British people voted to get out of the EU. But to my "continental" view it appears that they have no clue as to the way that they want to leave.
– Paul Palmpje
9 hours ago
1
1
I think the problem is that there is no majority agreement on the way in which the UK should leave, hence the 'impasse'. Which comes back to my original point/question: if it is not possible to reach a majority decision, then why not go with whichever option has the most support?
– Time4Tea
9 hours ago
I think the problem is that there is no majority agreement on the way in which the UK should leave, hence the 'impasse'. Which comes back to my original point/question: if it is not possible to reach a majority decision, then why not go with whichever option has the most support?
– Time4Tea
9 hours ago
It appears that your suggestion has no legal way. So what's next? The Brits want out... but they do not agree themselves on the way out?
– Paul Palmpje
9 hours ago
It appears that your suggestion has no legal way. So what's next? The Brits want out... but they do not agree themselves on the way out?
– Paul Palmpje
9 hours ago
Some of the other answers have indicated that there is a legal way such a vote could be held in the UK Parliament (if MPs agreed to it), but it isn't likely to happen. From where I'm standing, a no-deal exit seems to be the most likely scenario now, given it is the default outcome.
– Time4Tea
9 hours ago
Some of the other answers have indicated that there is a legal way such a vote could be held in the UK Parliament (if MPs agreed to it), but it isn't likely to happen. From where I'm standing, a no-deal exit seems to be the most likely scenario now, given it is the default outcome.
– Time4Tea
9 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
protected by Philipp♦ 9 hours ago
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8
There is no deal offered by the EU. Instead it was a deal agreed between the EU and the UK (that agree fully with all the details). Option 2 makes no sense, precisely because of this.
– John B
yesterday
2
@JohnB A slightly subtle point, but the negotiations were between the EU council and the UK government, rather than with the UK parliament, hence option 2 might have made some sense if Mrs May's administration (or another one) shifted its "red lines".
– origimbo
yesterday
3
Remembering that there is no guarantee that option 4 results in a clear way out of the deadlock either.
– DJClayworth
yesterday
5
@origimbo With all due respect, it is irrelevant for the EU how the UK decided to make the negotiations. But it is irresponsible and quite amateurish, that the UK negotiates for 2 years and then it is someone else that decides. For the EU the UK parliament does not enter in the equation, it is something merely internal, again with all due respect. I am certainly well aware of what you say, but because of the above there is no discussion here: "There is no deal offered by the EU. Instead it was a deal agreed between the EU and the UK (that agree[d] fully with all the details)." is still true.
– John B
yesterday
4
@JohnB In fact the situation is entirely symmetric. The EU negotiations were led by Michelle Barnier, but the agreement has to be approved by the EU parliament (and they can in principle reject it). What is different is that the EU parliament gave clear directions to the commission as to what they would find acceptable at the start of the negotiations, so the EU parliament approval is expected to be a formality.
– Martin Bonner
19 hours ago