How can we prove that any integral in the set of non-elementary integrals cannot be expressed in the form of elementary functions?Can every definite integral be expressed as a combination of elementary functions?Showing that an integral can not be expressed in terms of elementary functionsRepresent an Integral by non-elementary functionsWhat does it mean when an integral cannot be solved in terms of elementary functions?Prove that primitives of $fracx^3rm e^x - 1$ have no closed form in terms of elementary functionsCan you add new functions to the set of elementary functions such that every function has an anti-derivative?Can a change of variable result in the evaluation of an integral in terms of elementary functions, whereas before the c.o.v. this was not possible?Can I create a set of new elementary functions such that their integral is an elementary function?How to prove $int frac1(xsin(x))^2,dx$ doesnt have an elementary closed form?Is the set of elementary functions which do not have elementary integrals bigger than set of elementary functions which have elementary integrals?
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How can we prove that any integral in the set of non-elementary integrals cannot be expressed in the form of elementary functions?
Can every definite integral be expressed as a combination of elementary functions?Showing that an integral can not be expressed in terms of elementary functionsRepresent an Integral by non-elementary functionsWhat does it mean when an integral cannot be solved in terms of elementary functions?Prove that primitives of $fracx^3rm e^x - 1$ have no closed form in terms of elementary functionsCan you add new functions to the set of elementary functions such that every function has an anti-derivative?Can a change of variable result in the evaluation of an integral in terms of elementary functions, whereas before the c.o.v. this was not possible?Can I create a set of new elementary functions such that their integral is an elementary function?How to prove $int frac1(xsin(x))^2,dx$ doesnt have an elementary closed form?Is the set of elementary functions which do not have elementary integrals bigger than set of elementary functions which have elementary integrals?
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
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We know that the derivative of some non-elementary functions can be expressed in elementary functions. For example $ fracddx Si(x)= fracsin(x)x $
So similarly are there any non-elementary functions whose integrals can be expressed in elementary functions?
If not then how can we prove that any integral in the set of non-elementary integrals cannot be expressed in the form of elementary functions?
calculus integration proof-theory
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We know that the derivative of some non-elementary functions can be expressed in elementary functions. For example $ fracddx Si(x)= fracsin(x)x $
So similarly are there any non-elementary functions whose integrals can be expressed in elementary functions?
If not then how can we prove that any integral in the set of non-elementary integrals cannot be expressed in the form of elementary functions?
calculus integration proof-theory
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
Differential algebra is a galois like approach to proving such things. pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3d42/…
$endgroup$
– Charlie Frohman
Mar 27 at 18:16
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We know that the derivative of some non-elementary functions can be expressed in elementary functions. For example $ fracddx Si(x)= fracsin(x)x $
So similarly are there any non-elementary functions whose integrals can be expressed in elementary functions?
If not then how can we prove that any integral in the set of non-elementary integrals cannot be expressed in the form of elementary functions?
calculus integration proof-theory
$endgroup$
We know that the derivative of some non-elementary functions can be expressed in elementary functions. For example $ fracddx Si(x)= fracsin(x)x $
So similarly are there any non-elementary functions whose integrals can be expressed in elementary functions?
If not then how can we prove that any integral in the set of non-elementary integrals cannot be expressed in the form of elementary functions?
calculus integration proof-theory
calculus integration proof-theory
edited Mar 27 at 18:20
Bernard
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131k7 gold badges43 silver badges124 bronze badges
asked Mar 27 at 18:11
Rithik KapoorRithik Kapoor
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34213 bronze badges
2
$begingroup$
Differential algebra is a galois like approach to proving such things. pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3d42/…
$endgroup$
– Charlie Frohman
Mar 27 at 18:16
add a comment |
2
$begingroup$
Differential algebra is a galois like approach to proving such things. pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3d42/…
$endgroup$
– Charlie Frohman
Mar 27 at 18:16
2
2
$begingroup$
Differential algebra is a galois like approach to proving such things. pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3d42/…
$endgroup$
– Charlie Frohman
Mar 27 at 18:16
$begingroup$
Differential algebra is a galois like approach to proving such things. pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3d42/…
$endgroup$
– Charlie Frohman
Mar 27 at 18:16
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The derivative of an elementary function is an elementary function: the standard Calculus 1 differentiation methods can be used to find this derivative. So an antiderivative of a non-elementary function can't be elementary.
EDIT: More formally, by definition an elementary function is obtained from
complex constants and the variable $x$ by a finite number of steps of the following forms:
- If $f_1$ and $f_2$ are elementary functions, then $f_1 + f_2$, $f_1 f_2$ and (if $f_2 ne 0$) $f_1/f_2$ are elementary.
- If $P$ is a non-constant polynomial whose coefficients are elementary functions, then a function $f$ such that $P(f) = 0$ is an elementary function.
- If $g$ is an elementary function, then a function $f$ such that $f' = g' f$ or $f' = g'/g$ is elementary (this is how $e^g$ and $log g$ are elementary).
To prove that the derivative of an elementary function, you can use induction on the number of these steps. In the induction step, suppose
the result is true for elementary functions obtained in at most $n$ steps.
If $f$ can be obtained in $n+1$ steps, the last being $f = f_1 + f_2$ where $f_1$ and $f_2$ each require at most $n$ steps, then $f' = f_1' + f_2'$ where $f_1'$ and $f_2'$ are elementary, and therefore $f'$ is elementary. Similarly for the other possibilities for the last step.
$endgroup$
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Okay then how can we prove the derivative of an elementary function is always an elementary function?
$endgroup$
– Rithik Kapoor
Mar 27 at 18:26
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@RithikKapoor Frankly sir, common sense. Writing an explicit formal proof might be tricky but we already know that any composition of elementary functions can be handled with the chain, product, division, and addition rules. If you're asking how to formalize it, fair enough. However if you are asking "How do I know this is true" then it follows by simple observance.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 0:28
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Query. What if we include the Heaviside step function as an elementary function? Would this have any affect on the answer?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 0:29
$begingroup$
@TheGreatDuck, before anything else, what would you say about the function $fracx+sqrtx^22x$?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 2:46
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The Heaviside step function is elementary, according to (2), as it satisfies $f^2 - f = 0$.
$endgroup$
– Robert Israel
Mar 28 at 3:01
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
No, the derivative of an elementary function is elementary; some integrals were defined specifically as the antiderivative of certain functions because that function otherwise would have no closed-form antiderivative.
An anti-derivative of a non-elementary function cannot be an elementary function.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes, and I can provide a simple counter-example.
Let $f(x)$ be piece-wise defined such that $f(x) = x^2$ for $x neq 0$ and such that $f(0) = 300$.
This is not an elementary function. However its integral is $F(x) = frac 13x^3 + c$ which is elementary.
For a slightly more "non-elementary" example just make $f(x) = -500$ whenever $x$ is an integer multiple of $n = 0.0001$. Feel free to keep decreasing $n$ to make the function messier and messier.
However, if you want a continuous non-elementary $f$ then no. If $f$ is continuous then by one of the fundamental theorems of calculus $F'(x) = f(x)$ and the derivative of an elementary function is an elementary function. Furthermore, if you want that $f$ is an integral of some other $h$ then it follows that $f$ is continuous as the integral of any real valued function defined everywhere is a continuous function. So this will only work with discontinuous $f$'s that are not integrals of other functions.
In short the set of derivatives of elementary functions $neq$ the set of anti-integrals of elementary functions.
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1
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Why is a piecewise function with elementary cases not elementary?
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– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 1:20
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@J.M.isnotamathematician an infinite number of cases?
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– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 1:34
1
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I am talking about your second sentence. You give a quadratic function with a hole and say that it is nonelementary.
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– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 1:43
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@J.M.isnotamathematician As I said, there are much messier example and I gave one. The definition of elementary is tenuous at best. Provide a detailed analytical definition and I'll say whether something fits inside it. Until then, there's no real way to tell for sure. Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept. Regardless, I can easily keep cranking up the complexity on the counter-example so it doesn't change the result if I mis-identify some simpler function as being non-elementary.
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– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 1:47
2
$begingroup$
"Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept." - in this regard at least, we are in agreement.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 1:55
|
show 1 more comment
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
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$begingroup$
The derivative of an elementary function is an elementary function: the standard Calculus 1 differentiation methods can be used to find this derivative. So an antiderivative of a non-elementary function can't be elementary.
EDIT: More formally, by definition an elementary function is obtained from
complex constants and the variable $x$ by a finite number of steps of the following forms:
- If $f_1$ and $f_2$ are elementary functions, then $f_1 + f_2$, $f_1 f_2$ and (if $f_2 ne 0$) $f_1/f_2$ are elementary.
- If $P$ is a non-constant polynomial whose coefficients are elementary functions, then a function $f$ such that $P(f) = 0$ is an elementary function.
- If $g$ is an elementary function, then a function $f$ such that $f' = g' f$ or $f' = g'/g$ is elementary (this is how $e^g$ and $log g$ are elementary).
To prove that the derivative of an elementary function, you can use induction on the number of these steps. In the induction step, suppose
the result is true for elementary functions obtained in at most $n$ steps.
If $f$ can be obtained in $n+1$ steps, the last being $f = f_1 + f_2$ where $f_1$ and $f_2$ each require at most $n$ steps, then $f' = f_1' + f_2'$ where $f_1'$ and $f_2'$ are elementary, and therefore $f'$ is elementary. Similarly for the other possibilities for the last step.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Okay then how can we prove the derivative of an elementary function is always an elementary function?
$endgroup$
– Rithik Kapoor
Mar 27 at 18:26
$begingroup$
@RithikKapoor Frankly sir, common sense. Writing an explicit formal proof might be tricky but we already know that any composition of elementary functions can be handled with the chain, product, division, and addition rules. If you're asking how to formalize it, fair enough. However if you are asking "How do I know this is true" then it follows by simple observance.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 0:28
$begingroup$
Query. What if we include the Heaviside step function as an elementary function? Would this have any affect on the answer?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 0:29
$begingroup$
@TheGreatDuck, before anything else, what would you say about the function $fracx+sqrtx^22x$?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 2:46
$begingroup$
The Heaviside step function is elementary, according to (2), as it satisfies $f^2 - f = 0$.
$endgroup$
– Robert Israel
Mar 28 at 3:01
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
The derivative of an elementary function is an elementary function: the standard Calculus 1 differentiation methods can be used to find this derivative. So an antiderivative of a non-elementary function can't be elementary.
EDIT: More formally, by definition an elementary function is obtained from
complex constants and the variable $x$ by a finite number of steps of the following forms:
- If $f_1$ and $f_2$ are elementary functions, then $f_1 + f_2$, $f_1 f_2$ and (if $f_2 ne 0$) $f_1/f_2$ are elementary.
- If $P$ is a non-constant polynomial whose coefficients are elementary functions, then a function $f$ such that $P(f) = 0$ is an elementary function.
- If $g$ is an elementary function, then a function $f$ such that $f' = g' f$ or $f' = g'/g$ is elementary (this is how $e^g$ and $log g$ are elementary).
To prove that the derivative of an elementary function, you can use induction on the number of these steps. In the induction step, suppose
the result is true for elementary functions obtained in at most $n$ steps.
If $f$ can be obtained in $n+1$ steps, the last being $f = f_1 + f_2$ where $f_1$ and $f_2$ each require at most $n$ steps, then $f' = f_1' + f_2'$ where $f_1'$ and $f_2'$ are elementary, and therefore $f'$ is elementary. Similarly for the other possibilities for the last step.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Okay then how can we prove the derivative of an elementary function is always an elementary function?
$endgroup$
– Rithik Kapoor
Mar 27 at 18:26
$begingroup$
@RithikKapoor Frankly sir, common sense. Writing an explicit formal proof might be tricky but we already know that any composition of elementary functions can be handled with the chain, product, division, and addition rules. If you're asking how to formalize it, fair enough. However if you are asking "How do I know this is true" then it follows by simple observance.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 0:28
$begingroup$
Query. What if we include the Heaviside step function as an elementary function? Would this have any affect on the answer?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 0:29
$begingroup$
@TheGreatDuck, before anything else, what would you say about the function $fracx+sqrtx^22x$?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 2:46
$begingroup$
The Heaviside step function is elementary, according to (2), as it satisfies $f^2 - f = 0$.
$endgroup$
– Robert Israel
Mar 28 at 3:01
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
The derivative of an elementary function is an elementary function: the standard Calculus 1 differentiation methods can be used to find this derivative. So an antiderivative of a non-elementary function can't be elementary.
EDIT: More formally, by definition an elementary function is obtained from
complex constants and the variable $x$ by a finite number of steps of the following forms:
- If $f_1$ and $f_2$ are elementary functions, then $f_1 + f_2$, $f_1 f_2$ and (if $f_2 ne 0$) $f_1/f_2$ are elementary.
- If $P$ is a non-constant polynomial whose coefficients are elementary functions, then a function $f$ such that $P(f) = 0$ is an elementary function.
- If $g$ is an elementary function, then a function $f$ such that $f' = g' f$ or $f' = g'/g$ is elementary (this is how $e^g$ and $log g$ are elementary).
To prove that the derivative of an elementary function, you can use induction on the number of these steps. In the induction step, suppose
the result is true for elementary functions obtained in at most $n$ steps.
If $f$ can be obtained in $n+1$ steps, the last being $f = f_1 + f_2$ where $f_1$ and $f_2$ each require at most $n$ steps, then $f' = f_1' + f_2'$ where $f_1'$ and $f_2'$ are elementary, and therefore $f'$ is elementary. Similarly for the other possibilities for the last step.
$endgroup$
The derivative of an elementary function is an elementary function: the standard Calculus 1 differentiation methods can be used to find this derivative. So an antiderivative of a non-elementary function can't be elementary.
EDIT: More formally, by definition an elementary function is obtained from
complex constants and the variable $x$ by a finite number of steps of the following forms:
- If $f_1$ and $f_2$ are elementary functions, then $f_1 + f_2$, $f_1 f_2$ and (if $f_2 ne 0$) $f_1/f_2$ are elementary.
- If $P$ is a non-constant polynomial whose coefficients are elementary functions, then a function $f$ such that $P(f) = 0$ is an elementary function.
- If $g$ is an elementary function, then a function $f$ such that $f' = g' f$ or $f' = g'/g$ is elementary (this is how $e^g$ and $log g$ are elementary).
To prove that the derivative of an elementary function, you can use induction on the number of these steps. In the induction step, suppose
the result is true for elementary functions obtained in at most $n$ steps.
If $f$ can be obtained in $n+1$ steps, the last being $f = f_1 + f_2$ where $f_1$ and $f_2$ each require at most $n$ steps, then $f' = f_1' + f_2'$ where $f_1'$ and $f_2'$ are elementary, and therefore $f'$ is elementary. Similarly for the other possibilities for the last step.
edited Mar 27 at 18:46
answered Mar 27 at 18:16
Robert IsraelRobert Israel
346k23 gold badges241 silver badges503 bronze badges
346k23 gold badges241 silver badges503 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Okay then how can we prove the derivative of an elementary function is always an elementary function?
$endgroup$
– Rithik Kapoor
Mar 27 at 18:26
$begingroup$
@RithikKapoor Frankly sir, common sense. Writing an explicit formal proof might be tricky but we already know that any composition of elementary functions can be handled with the chain, product, division, and addition rules. If you're asking how to formalize it, fair enough. However if you are asking "How do I know this is true" then it follows by simple observance.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 0:28
$begingroup$
Query. What if we include the Heaviside step function as an elementary function? Would this have any affect on the answer?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 0:29
$begingroup$
@TheGreatDuck, before anything else, what would you say about the function $fracx+sqrtx^22x$?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 2:46
$begingroup$
The Heaviside step function is elementary, according to (2), as it satisfies $f^2 - f = 0$.
$endgroup$
– Robert Israel
Mar 28 at 3:01
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Okay then how can we prove the derivative of an elementary function is always an elementary function?
$endgroup$
– Rithik Kapoor
Mar 27 at 18:26
$begingroup$
@RithikKapoor Frankly sir, common sense. Writing an explicit formal proof might be tricky but we already know that any composition of elementary functions can be handled with the chain, product, division, and addition rules. If you're asking how to formalize it, fair enough. However if you are asking "How do I know this is true" then it follows by simple observance.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 0:28
$begingroup$
Query. What if we include the Heaviside step function as an elementary function? Would this have any affect on the answer?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 0:29
$begingroup$
@TheGreatDuck, before anything else, what would you say about the function $fracx+sqrtx^22x$?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 2:46
$begingroup$
The Heaviside step function is elementary, according to (2), as it satisfies $f^2 - f = 0$.
$endgroup$
– Robert Israel
Mar 28 at 3:01
$begingroup$
Okay then how can we prove the derivative of an elementary function is always an elementary function?
$endgroup$
– Rithik Kapoor
Mar 27 at 18:26
$begingroup$
Okay then how can we prove the derivative of an elementary function is always an elementary function?
$endgroup$
– Rithik Kapoor
Mar 27 at 18:26
$begingroup$
@RithikKapoor Frankly sir, common sense. Writing an explicit formal proof might be tricky but we already know that any composition of elementary functions can be handled with the chain, product, division, and addition rules. If you're asking how to formalize it, fair enough. However if you are asking "How do I know this is true" then it follows by simple observance.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 0:28
$begingroup$
@RithikKapoor Frankly sir, common sense. Writing an explicit formal proof might be tricky but we already know that any composition of elementary functions can be handled with the chain, product, division, and addition rules. If you're asking how to formalize it, fair enough. However if you are asking "How do I know this is true" then it follows by simple observance.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 0:28
$begingroup$
Query. What if we include the Heaviside step function as an elementary function? Would this have any affect on the answer?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 0:29
$begingroup$
Query. What if we include the Heaviside step function as an elementary function? Would this have any affect on the answer?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 0:29
$begingroup$
@TheGreatDuck, before anything else, what would you say about the function $fracx+sqrtx^22x$?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 2:46
$begingroup$
@TheGreatDuck, before anything else, what would you say about the function $fracx+sqrtx^22x$?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 2:46
$begingroup$
The Heaviside step function is elementary, according to (2), as it satisfies $f^2 - f = 0$.
$endgroup$
– Robert Israel
Mar 28 at 3:01
$begingroup$
The Heaviside step function is elementary, according to (2), as it satisfies $f^2 - f = 0$.
$endgroup$
– Robert Israel
Mar 28 at 3:01
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
No, the derivative of an elementary function is elementary; some integrals were defined specifically as the antiderivative of certain functions because that function otherwise would have no closed-form antiderivative.
An anti-derivative of a non-elementary function cannot be an elementary function.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
No, the derivative of an elementary function is elementary; some integrals were defined specifically as the antiderivative of certain functions because that function otherwise would have no closed-form antiderivative.
An anti-derivative of a non-elementary function cannot be an elementary function.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
No, the derivative of an elementary function is elementary; some integrals were defined specifically as the antiderivative of certain functions because that function otherwise would have no closed-form antiderivative.
An anti-derivative of a non-elementary function cannot be an elementary function.
$endgroup$
No, the derivative of an elementary function is elementary; some integrals were defined specifically as the antiderivative of certain functions because that function otherwise would have no closed-form antiderivative.
An anti-derivative of a non-elementary function cannot be an elementary function.
answered Mar 27 at 18:18
El EctricEl Ectric
5794 silver badges17 bronze badges
5794 silver badges17 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes, and I can provide a simple counter-example.
Let $f(x)$ be piece-wise defined such that $f(x) = x^2$ for $x neq 0$ and such that $f(0) = 300$.
This is not an elementary function. However its integral is $F(x) = frac 13x^3 + c$ which is elementary.
For a slightly more "non-elementary" example just make $f(x) = -500$ whenever $x$ is an integer multiple of $n = 0.0001$. Feel free to keep decreasing $n$ to make the function messier and messier.
However, if you want a continuous non-elementary $f$ then no. If $f$ is continuous then by one of the fundamental theorems of calculus $F'(x) = f(x)$ and the derivative of an elementary function is an elementary function. Furthermore, if you want that $f$ is an integral of some other $h$ then it follows that $f$ is continuous as the integral of any real valued function defined everywhere is a continuous function. So this will only work with discontinuous $f$'s that are not integrals of other functions.
In short the set of derivatives of elementary functions $neq$ the set of anti-integrals of elementary functions.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Why is a piecewise function with elementary cases not elementary?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 1:20
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@J.M.isnotamathematician an infinite number of cases?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 1:34
1
$begingroup$
I am talking about your second sentence. You give a quadratic function with a hole and say that it is nonelementary.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 1:43
$begingroup$
@J.M.isnotamathematician As I said, there are much messier example and I gave one. The definition of elementary is tenuous at best. Provide a detailed analytical definition and I'll say whether something fits inside it. Until then, there's no real way to tell for sure. Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept. Regardless, I can easily keep cranking up the complexity on the counter-example so it doesn't change the result if I mis-identify some simpler function as being non-elementary.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 1:47
2
$begingroup$
"Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept." - in this regard at least, we are in agreement.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 1:55
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Yes, and I can provide a simple counter-example.
Let $f(x)$ be piece-wise defined such that $f(x) = x^2$ for $x neq 0$ and such that $f(0) = 300$.
This is not an elementary function. However its integral is $F(x) = frac 13x^3 + c$ which is elementary.
For a slightly more "non-elementary" example just make $f(x) = -500$ whenever $x$ is an integer multiple of $n = 0.0001$. Feel free to keep decreasing $n$ to make the function messier and messier.
However, if you want a continuous non-elementary $f$ then no. If $f$ is continuous then by one of the fundamental theorems of calculus $F'(x) = f(x)$ and the derivative of an elementary function is an elementary function. Furthermore, if you want that $f$ is an integral of some other $h$ then it follows that $f$ is continuous as the integral of any real valued function defined everywhere is a continuous function. So this will only work with discontinuous $f$'s that are not integrals of other functions.
In short the set of derivatives of elementary functions $neq$ the set of anti-integrals of elementary functions.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Why is a piecewise function with elementary cases not elementary?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 1:20
$begingroup$
@J.M.isnotamathematician an infinite number of cases?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 1:34
1
$begingroup$
I am talking about your second sentence. You give a quadratic function with a hole and say that it is nonelementary.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 1:43
$begingroup$
@J.M.isnotamathematician As I said, there are much messier example and I gave one. The definition of elementary is tenuous at best. Provide a detailed analytical definition and I'll say whether something fits inside it. Until then, there's no real way to tell for sure. Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept. Regardless, I can easily keep cranking up the complexity on the counter-example so it doesn't change the result if I mis-identify some simpler function as being non-elementary.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 1:47
2
$begingroup$
"Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept." - in this regard at least, we are in agreement.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 1:55
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Yes, and I can provide a simple counter-example.
Let $f(x)$ be piece-wise defined such that $f(x) = x^2$ for $x neq 0$ and such that $f(0) = 300$.
This is not an elementary function. However its integral is $F(x) = frac 13x^3 + c$ which is elementary.
For a slightly more "non-elementary" example just make $f(x) = -500$ whenever $x$ is an integer multiple of $n = 0.0001$. Feel free to keep decreasing $n$ to make the function messier and messier.
However, if you want a continuous non-elementary $f$ then no. If $f$ is continuous then by one of the fundamental theorems of calculus $F'(x) = f(x)$ and the derivative of an elementary function is an elementary function. Furthermore, if you want that $f$ is an integral of some other $h$ then it follows that $f$ is continuous as the integral of any real valued function defined everywhere is a continuous function. So this will only work with discontinuous $f$'s that are not integrals of other functions.
In short the set of derivatives of elementary functions $neq$ the set of anti-integrals of elementary functions.
$endgroup$
Yes, and I can provide a simple counter-example.
Let $f(x)$ be piece-wise defined such that $f(x) = x^2$ for $x neq 0$ and such that $f(0) = 300$.
This is not an elementary function. However its integral is $F(x) = frac 13x^3 + c$ which is elementary.
For a slightly more "non-elementary" example just make $f(x) = -500$ whenever $x$ is an integer multiple of $n = 0.0001$. Feel free to keep decreasing $n$ to make the function messier and messier.
However, if you want a continuous non-elementary $f$ then no. If $f$ is continuous then by one of the fundamental theorems of calculus $F'(x) = f(x)$ and the derivative of an elementary function is an elementary function. Furthermore, if you want that $f$ is an integral of some other $h$ then it follows that $f$ is continuous as the integral of any real valued function defined everywhere is a continuous function. So this will only work with discontinuous $f$'s that are not integrals of other functions.
In short the set of derivatives of elementary functions $neq$ the set of anti-integrals of elementary functions.
answered Mar 28 at 0:38
The Great DuckThe Great Duck
2723 gold badges20 silver badges48 bronze badges
2723 gold badges20 silver badges48 bronze badges
1
$begingroup$
Why is a piecewise function with elementary cases not elementary?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 1:20
$begingroup$
@J.M.isnotamathematician an infinite number of cases?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 1:34
1
$begingroup$
I am talking about your second sentence. You give a quadratic function with a hole and say that it is nonelementary.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 1:43
$begingroup$
@J.M.isnotamathematician As I said, there are much messier example and I gave one. The definition of elementary is tenuous at best. Provide a detailed analytical definition and I'll say whether something fits inside it. Until then, there's no real way to tell for sure. Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept. Regardless, I can easily keep cranking up the complexity on the counter-example so it doesn't change the result if I mis-identify some simpler function as being non-elementary.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 1:47
2
$begingroup$
"Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept." - in this regard at least, we are in agreement.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 1:55
|
show 1 more comment
1
$begingroup$
Why is a piecewise function with elementary cases not elementary?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 1:20
$begingroup$
@J.M.isnotamathematician an infinite number of cases?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 1:34
1
$begingroup$
I am talking about your second sentence. You give a quadratic function with a hole and say that it is nonelementary.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 1:43
$begingroup$
@J.M.isnotamathematician As I said, there are much messier example and I gave one. The definition of elementary is tenuous at best. Provide a detailed analytical definition and I'll say whether something fits inside it. Until then, there's no real way to tell for sure. Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept. Regardless, I can easily keep cranking up the complexity on the counter-example so it doesn't change the result if I mis-identify some simpler function as being non-elementary.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 1:47
2
$begingroup$
"Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept." - in this regard at least, we are in agreement.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 1:55
1
1
$begingroup$
Why is a piecewise function with elementary cases not elementary?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 1:20
$begingroup$
Why is a piecewise function with elementary cases not elementary?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 1:20
$begingroup$
@J.M.isnotamathematician an infinite number of cases?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 1:34
$begingroup$
@J.M.isnotamathematician an infinite number of cases?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 1:34
1
1
$begingroup$
I am talking about your second sentence. You give a quadratic function with a hole and say that it is nonelementary.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 1:43
$begingroup$
I am talking about your second sentence. You give a quadratic function with a hole and say that it is nonelementary.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 1:43
$begingroup$
@J.M.isnotamathematician As I said, there are much messier example and I gave one. The definition of elementary is tenuous at best. Provide a detailed analytical definition and I'll say whether something fits inside it. Until then, there's no real way to tell for sure. Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept. Regardless, I can easily keep cranking up the complexity on the counter-example so it doesn't change the result if I mis-identify some simpler function as being non-elementary.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 1:47
$begingroup$
@J.M.isnotamathematician As I said, there are much messier example and I gave one. The definition of elementary is tenuous at best. Provide a detailed analytical definition and I'll say whether something fits inside it. Until then, there's no real way to tell for sure. Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept. Regardless, I can easily keep cranking up the complexity on the counter-example so it doesn't change the result if I mis-identify some simpler function as being non-elementary.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
Mar 28 at 1:47
2
2
$begingroup$
"Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept." - in this regard at least, we are in agreement.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 1:55
$begingroup$
"Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept." - in this regard at least, we are in agreement.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is a poor mathematician
Mar 28 at 1:55
|
show 1 more comment
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Differential algebra is a galois like approach to proving such things. pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3d42/…
$endgroup$
– Charlie Frohman
Mar 27 at 18:16